Anyone else hoping that R+L=/= J?

[sj4iy]

Love Pratchett, but not sure about the name you mentioned... not your fault. It's actually one of the only series I read in my native language Dutch, because I find the translator gives it even that extra little punch; it's even funnier than Pratchett's writing, weirdly enough. ETA: oh yeah, now I remember the story you mentioned. My favs are the ones revolving around Death's adventures, and the witches.

Yeah, the character I mentioned is in the Watch series. You can find the specific storyline in "Guards! Guards!" and "Men at Arms".

[PirateVergo]

Well since all the Targ alive right now are all cocky and boring (Dany/Aegon) I hope R+L=J is true so we can get a good and humble targ for once.

[Debra Morgan]

Any evidence for your belief? At all?

Belief doesn't need any evidences.)) However, I have some.

First of all, GRRM said in one of his interviews that only bad writers can write a story where a young girl runs off from arranged marriage.

Secondly, Parris McBride said a few times that it is too obvious for Martin. I know you will say that she doesn't know this information so maybe it is right. However, she is Martin's first fan and of course she figured it out. She knows her husband for years so she can predict what he wants to do. And I've read on this forum that she insinuated that R+L=J is too cute for Martin's style.

Moreover, Tyrion in tGOT says that Jon has more northern features than his brothers and sisters. So the father of Stark's children is Ned who is true northern man and if Jon's is Rhaegar son how can he have more northern features?

Furthermore, Jon burnt his hand. I know that Targs are not immune to fire, however Jon had a lot of problems with his hand. It can't heal for long time.

And I've heard that GRRM said that Jon's parentage is more complicated than we think. So may be it is true, I don't know, however, did he really said it.

And I don't think that Alfie Allen's interview proves R+L=J. It can mean everything. The biggest blackmark against my thoughts that D&D guessed who is Jon's mother because it suggests that the mother is Lyanna.

However, to be honest, I don't think Ned is Jon's father. I tend to think that the mother is Lyanna but the father is not Rhaegar. May be I'm wrong but it is my belief.

[Game Of Thrones]

Belief doesn't need any evidences.)) However, I have some.

First of all, GRRM said in one of his interviews that only bad writers can write a story where a young girl runs off from arranged marriage.

No, he criticized stories set in a medieval setting where the princess runs away with a stable boy or a commoner from an arranged setting. Rhaegar was a prince. And guess what, Lyanna could have been kidnapped by Rhaegar.

Secondly, Parris McBride said a few times that it is too obvious for Martin. I know you will say that she doesn't know this information so maybe it is right. However, she is Martin's first fan and of course she figured it out. She knows her husband for years so she can predict what he wants to do. And I've read on this forum that she insinuated that R+L=J is too cute for Martin's style.

In a SSM Martin said he doesn't show her unpublished material, so her opinion means as much as mine or yours.

Moreover, Tyrion in tGOT says that Jon has more northern features than his brothers and sisters. So the father of Stark's children is Ned who is true northern man and if Jon's is Rhaegar son how can he have more northern features?

Well, Lyanna. The father's not the only person who inherits genes. Also, Ned was raised in the Vale so he is more Arryn (High as Honor) IMO.

Furthermore, Jon burnt his hand. I know that Targs are not immune to fire, however Jon had a lot of problems with his hand. It can't heal for long time.

Targs aren't immune to fire as you said, so this proves nothing.

And I've heard that GRRM said that Jon's parentage is more complicated than we think. So may be it is true, I don't know, however, did he really said it.

I've read many SSMs and I've never seen this.

And I don't think that Alfie Allen's interview proves R+L=J. It can mean everything. The biggest blackmark against my thoughts that D&D guessed who is Jon's mother because it suggests that the mother is Lyanna.

However, to be honest, I don't think Ned is Jon's father. I tend to think that the mother is Lyanna but the father is not Rhaegar. May be I'm wrong but it is my belief.

So who's the father then? Ned?

[sj4iy]

Belief doesn't need any evidences.)) However, I have some.

First of all, GRRM said in one of his interviews that only bad writers can write a story where a young girl runs off from arranged marriage.

Secondly, Parris McBride said a few times that it is too obvious for Martin. I know you will say that she doesn't know this information so maybe it is right. However, she is Martin's first fan and of course she figured it out. She knows her husband for years so she can predict what he wants to do. And I've read on this forum that she insinuated that R+L=J is too cute for Martin's style.

Moreover, Tyrion in tGOT says that Jon has more northern features than his brothers and sisters. So the father of Stark's children is Ned who is true northern man and if Jon's is Rhaegar son how can he have more northern features?

Furthermore, Jon burnt his hand. I know that Targs are not immune to fire, however Jon had a lot of problems with his hand. It can't heal for long time.

And I've heard that GRRM said that Jon's parentage is more complicated than we think. So may be it is true, I don't know, however, did he really said it.

And I don't think that Alfie Allen's interview proves R+L=J. It can mean everything. The biggest blackmark against my thoughts that D&D guessed who is Jon's mother because it suggests that the mother is Lyanna.

However, to be honest, I don't think Ned is Jon's father. I tend to think that the mother is Lyanna but the father is not Rhaegar. May be I'm wrong but it is my belief.

Just to add, Martin's editor figured out who Jon's mother was after reading the first book. So nothing that is introduced in later books can possibly be the right answer.

[RoamingRonin]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, to be honest. In HP, we, the audience, and Harry, find out who Harry is at the same time. Of course his story depends on when he finds out. If he doesn't find out, then he stays where he is.

Jon's story is also changed dramatically without the knowledge. Had Ned told Jon who he was at the beginning of the story, would Jon have gone to the Wall? Would he have set out to claim his birthright? We'll never know what Jon would have done, but I think it's safe to say that the story ended up being dramatically different because Jon didn't find out who he was.

That's a shame because I thought I was being perfectly clear this whole time: Jon and Harry are different because their stories are different but that's about it. Harry didn't discover he was the Chosen One until later in the series and the same will be said about Jon once it's all said and done. Many aspects of their story are different but the same can be said of Harry, Luke, Neo, and Aragorn. No two Chosen One stories are the same in execution but the archetypes are all there.

Instead of Jon struggling to live up to his birthright, as we typically see in 'chosen one' stories, we see Jon struggling to prove that birthright doesn't define him...that he can be a leader despite his bastard status, and not a story about him becoming a leader because he's expected to be. While other characters get boons to raise them up in the story, like dragons or being proclaimed Hand of the King, Jon is struggling to figure out what 'honor' really is while he's undercover as a spy.

Other characters are making decisions which impact the story profoundly...Jon is making decisions that impact his character.

Boons like Valyrian steel swords, magic skinchanging abilities and a direwolf pup. Just because he hasn't been told he's the heir to the seven kingdoms doesn't mean Jon isn't following the the Hero's Journey described by Joseph Campbell.

We might disagree on this but that doesn't change my original post. I want to see how Jon's story concludes in a typically GRRM fashion.

[sj4iy]

That's a shame because I thought I was being perfectly clear this whole time: Jon and Harry are different because their stories are different but that's about it. Harry didn't discover he was the Chosen One until later in the series and the same will be said about Jon once it's all said and done. Many aspects of their story are different but the same can be said of Harry, Luke, Neo, and Aragorn. No two Chosen One stories are the same in execution but the archetypes are all there.

Boons like Valyrian steel swords, magic skinchanging abilities and a direwolf pup. Just because he hasn't been told he's the heir to the seven kingdoms doesn't mean Jon isn't following the the Hero's Journey described by Joseph Campbell.

We might disagree on this but that doesn't change my original post. I want to see how Jon's story concludes in a typically GRRM fashion.

I completely disagree about HP. It was pretty clear from the off that he was the 'chosen one'. He was bombarded with that shit from the very beginning, prophecy or no prophecy. If anything, the prophecy later on was pretty pointless.

Jon's story is very different from Harry's in every way. For one, he's not the focus of the story like Harry was. For two, Jon isn't 'saved' from a bad situation...if anything, he goes from a good situation to a worse one in the Night's Watch. Jon's simply a noble bastard with no prospects and no future, except for what he makes himself. Harry is the son of great magicians who fought against the bad guy and were killed and is given a shit ton of leeway to do stupid things the entire time he's at Hogwart's because of who his parents were. Being the son of Ned Stark helps Jon in some cases and hurts him in other cases.

-Jon is given a nice sword...but it's not special. Many lords have Valyrian steel swords. Now, if Jon had Dawn, that would be different, because it's one of a kind. But he doesn't.

-Jon is a warg...but that's not very special, either. His brothers and sisters are also wargs, and there are many skinchangers North of the Wall. Bran is actually more 'special' than Jon is in this case, because he's not only a very powerful warg, but he's also a greenseer.

-Jon has a direwolf...so do his brothers and sisters. So did many of the Stark lords in years past. Not that special. Direwolves may be rare South of the Wall, but we know there are plenty of them North of the Wall. They certainly don't compare to dragons, though.

I never said that Jon isn't following the hero's journey. I said that his story is not the stereotypical hero's story. It's certainly very different from Harry Potter (which is about as stereotypical as one can get). Jon may have some advantages in comparison to other characters, but he's certainly not alone in his abilities, nor is he even the best at any of them. He's not the best sword fighter, he's undeveloped at warging, and he's not the most charismatic leader. He may be good at all of them, but he's certainly not the greatest at any of them.

[JNR]

-Jon is given a nice sword...but it's not special. Many lords have Valyrian steel swords. Now, if Jon had Dawn, that would be different, because it's one of a kind. But he doesn't.

-Jon is a warg...but that's not very special, either. His brothers and sisters are also wargs, and there are many skinchangers North of the Wall. Bran is actually more 'special' than Jon is in this case, because he's not only a very powerful warg, but he's also a greenseer.

-Jon has a direwolf...so do his brothers and sisters. So did many of the Stark lords in years past. Not that special. Direwolves may be rare South of the Wall, but we know there are plenty of them North of the Wall. They certainly don't compare to dragons, though.

I'm trying to picture how Hot Pie would react to this.

"You're saying being raised at Winterfell by the Lord Paramount of the North and being given a Valyrian steel sword and being elected the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch when you're all of 16 years old and being able to skinchange the magical direwolf you were given for no reason... doesn't make you special. Okay. Now I'm gonna go bake some bread."

Sure, things aren't easy for Jon. But let's not pretend the author hasn't given him a gigantic pile of improbable presents, all tidily wrapped up in a gorgeous bow.

It's surprising to me that so many fans consider that he still hasn't gotten enough, and he needs more, and indeed, inevitably will receive more -- far more! -- the GNC conspiracy (which has oddly failed to assist him in any way), the Iron Throne and control of Westeros, to have been the son of Rhaegar (the world's most perfect entity), to be AA, to be the PTWP, to be the wielder of Lightbringer, to share the bed of the most beautiful girl in alllllll the world (whether that means Val, Dany, or possibly both)...

...and on and on, forever and ever, amen. If there's one thing Preston Jacobs got dead right in his recent vid, it was mocking that.

[The Stannis Inquisition]

Yes, I really hope that all of the clues and hints concerning Jon's parentage that Martin has peppered throughout the series end up being so much wasted space. That would be extremely satisfying...

[sj4iy]

I'm trying to picture how Hot Pie would react to this.

"You're saying being raised at Winterfell by the Lord Paramount of the North and being given a Valyrian steel sword and being elected the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch when you're all of 16 years old and being able to skinchange the magical direwolf you were given for no reason... doesn't make you special. Okay. Now I'm gonna go bake some bread."

Sure, things aren't easy for Jon. But let's not pretend the author hasn't given him a gigantic pile of improbable presents, all tidily wrapped up in a gorgeous bow.

It's surprising to me that so many fans consider that he still hasn't gotten enough, and he needs more, and indeed, inevitably will receive more -- far more! -- the GNC conspiracy (which has oddly failed to assist him in any way), the Iron Throne and control of Westeros, to have been the son of Rhaegar (the world's most perfect entity), to be AA, to be the PTWP, to be the wielder of Lightbringer, to share the bed of the most beautiful girl in alllllll the world (whether that means Val, Dany, or possibly both)...

...and on and on, forever and ever, amen. If there's one thing Preston Jacobs got dead right in his recent vid, it was mocking that.

I'm saying that Jon is not marked as the 'chosen one', not that he hasn't been given advantages as a character...oh, look. I said EXACTLY that in my previous post.

And mocking what? What have I said about Jon becoming anything like that? Just because I think R+L=J doesn't mean I also believe that he's THE chosen one or that this story would even have anything like that. I said that Martin has already subverted the hidden prince trope. That's the point I was making and the point that you are completely missing.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

It's definitely a possibility. I don't understand the people saying it's extremely predictable, there are far more people who don't even think twice about Jon's parentage and just take it for what is said, he's Ned's bastard than theorizing about whether or not there's an alternative. I put together that R+L=J on my own but just assumed him the bastard child of their affair. Wasn't till I re-read someones post about Jon Connington remembering Rhaegars comment about the Dragon must have 3 heads that I thought him possibly a legitimate Targaryen. All-in-all I think it'll be true, not sure as to whether or not he'll be legitimate or just a bastard still. The significance of Jon is somewhat a puzzling if he does just turn out to be Ned's bastard. Why would Jon have this storyline if he was just a bastard? Well if he's a Targaryen bastard the prophecies are all out there so, THAT. But if he's a Bastard of Ned and some fisherwoman or wet nurse or Ashara Dayne then what does he bring to the story? And what then is the promise Ned makes to Lyanna? and how did Lyanna die

[sj4iy]

It's definitely a possibility. I don't understand the people saying it's extremely predictable, there are far more people who don't even think twice about Jon's parentage and just take it for what is said, he's Ned's bastard than theorizing about whether or not there's an alternative. I put together that R+L=J on my own but just assumed him the bastard child of their affair. Wasn't till I re-read someones post about Jon Connington remembering Rhaegars comment about the Dragon must have 3 heads that I thought him possibly a legitimate Targaryen. All-in-all I think it'll be true, not sure as to whether or not he'll be legitimate or just a bastard still. The significance of Jon is somewhat a puzzling if he does just turn out to be Ned's bastard. Why would Jon have this storyline if he was just a bastard? Well if he's a Targaryen bastard the prophecies are all out there so, THAT. But if he's a Bastard of Ned and some fisherwoman or wet nurse or Ashara Dayne then what does he bring to the story? And what then is the promise Ned makes to Lyanna? and how did Lyanna die

Yeah, it seems a bit anticlimactic to have Jon find out who he is and still be a bastard. He's basically back in the same boat he's been in, just with different parents.

[Debra Morgan]

Just to add, Martin's editor figured out who Jon's mother was after reading the first book. So nothing that is introduced in later books can possibly be the right answer.

Really? Mother or parents?

[sj4iy]

Really? Mother or parents?

Mother, but they obviously wouldn't say 'parents' when saying that. I'm trying to find the interview atm.

[Debra Morgan]

Mother, but they obviously wouldn't say 'parents' when saying that. I'm trying to find the interview atm.

Ok. If you find this interview will you give a link, please?

[sj4iy]

Ok. If you find this interview will you give a link, please?

Still looking (hard to find it because of all of the editor talk lately about the next book), but I remember reading that he gave his editor the manuscript of AGoT to read. After she was done, he asked her who she though Jon Snow's mother was, and she guessed correctly. Maybe someone else knows where to find the interview.

[RoamingRonin]

I completely disagree about HP. It was pretty clear from the off that he was the 'chosen one'. He was bombarded with that shit from the very beginning, prophecy or no prophecy. If anything, the prophecy later on was pretty pointless.

I used to think the prophecy was pointless too but then I realized it explains Voldemort's motives. Until then we (and Harry) assumed Voldemort just wanted to off Harry and his parents and failed. The prophecy explains everything.

It makes it clear Harry is the only one who can stop Voldemort.

Jon's story is very different from Harry's in every way. For one, he's not the focus of the story like Harry was. For two, Jon isn't 'saved' from a bad situation...if anything, he goes from a good situation to a worse one in the Night's Watch. Jon's simply a noble bastard with no prospects and no future, except for what he makes himself. Harry is the son of great magicians who fought against the bad guy and were killed and is given a shit ton of leeway to do stupid things the entire time he's at Hogwart's because of who his parents were. Being the son of Ned Stark helps Jon in some cases and hurts him in other cases.

The stories are different because, well, the stories are different. I agree with you there. But the archetypes are there so stories are (in a way) the same.

-Jon is given a nice sword...but it's not special. Many lords have Valyrian steel swords. Now, if Jon had Dawn, that would be different, because it's one of a kind. But he doesn't.

-Jon is a warg...but that's not very special, either. His brothers and sisters are also wargs, and there are many skinchangers North of the Wall. Bran is actually more 'special' than Jon is in this case, because he's not only a very powerful warg, but he's also a greenseer.

-Jon has a direwolf...so do his brothers and sisters. So did many of the Stark lords in years past. Not that special. Direwolves may be rare South of the Wall, but we know there are plenty of them North of the Wall. They certainly don't compare to dragons, though.

I'm not sure why you're trying to wave off what are obviously the boons of his story. He's not the only skinchanger but so what? Luke wasn't the only Jedi and Harry wasn't the only wizard.

Separately, you might have a case. But he's the (alleged) heir to the 7-kingdoms, he has a direwolf (a special albino), he is a skinchanger, was given a Valyrian steel sword, became the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at an extremely young age, is given special treatment on multiple occasions...

Add it all together and you've a typical fantasy hero.

I never said that Jon isn't following the hero's journey. I said that his story is not the stereotypical hero's story. It's certainly very different from Harry Potter (which is about as stereotypical as one can get). Jon may have some advantages in comparison to other characters, but he's certainly not alone in his abilities, nor is he even the best at any of them. He's not the best sword fighter, he's undeveloped at warging, and he's not the most charismatic leader. He may be good at all of them, but he's certainly not the greatest at any of them.

I disagree. He just hasn't been told he's heir yet... that's pretty much it. His story is as stereotypical as it gets.

[Natasi]

There is a misconception that people who believe in R+L=J believe in the theory because they *want* it to be true. But the truth is, the majority of people who believe in it do so because the clues and evidence in the actual books point towards the truth of the theory. No one is going to rage in the forums if it turns out those clues were misleading us from another truth; we will accept the truth Martin provides and roll with it. So the people who are getting giddy over the prospect of there being a mass flame fest because R+L=J believers were incorrect are going to be sorely disappointed.

[sj4iy]

I used to think the prophecy was pointless too but then I realized it explains Voldemort's motives. Until then we (and Harry) assumed Voldemort just wanted to off Harry and his parents and failed. The prophecy explains everything.

It makes it clear Harry is the only one who can stop Voldemort.

The prophecy was pointless. It was clear from the very beginning that Harry was the only one who was going to stop Voldemort.

The stories are different because, well, the stories are different. I agree with you there. But the archetypes are there so stories are (in a way) the same.

I said that Jon has the archetype. I said that it was subverted and twisted around.

I'm not sure why you're trying to wave off what are obviously the boons of his story. He's not the only skinchanger but so what? Luke wasn't the only Jedi and Harry wasn't the only wizard.

Where did I wave them off? I said he had advantages. I also said that those advantages don't mean he's the best at what he has. He has a nice sword, but so do others. He's a good swordsman, but he's not the best (we see Mance beat him straight up). He's a skinchanger, but his skills are not developed. He has prophetic dreams but he doesn't seem to notice them. Harry was clearly the chosen one. Luke was clearly the chosen one. Is Jon? Even those of us who have read the story and figured out who he is don't even know if that's true. It could be Dany, it could be Bran, it could be Tyrion for all we know. It could be a combination of everyone. THAT'S the difference between Jon's story and most stereotypical 'hero' stories. The stereotypes are there, but they have been twisted around and are not what they seem.

Separately, you might have a case. But he's the (alleged) heir to the 7-kingdoms, he has a direwolf (a special albino), he is a skinchanger, was given a Valyrian steel sword, became the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at an extremely young age, is given special treatment on multiple occasions...

Add it all together and you've a typical fantasy hero.

Is Jon the hero of this story? Is he undisputedly the one who will save the Seven Kingdoms? If you can't answer that, then he's not a typical fantasy hero.

I disagree. He just hasn't been told he's heir yet... that's pretty much it. His story is as stereotypical as it gets.

And what happens when he finds out?

He has stereotypical elements to his character, I've never argued that he didn't. But that doesn't make his character a stereotype in and of itself.

[JonSnow4President]

There is a misconception that people who believe in R+L=J believe in the theory because they *want* it to be true. But the truth is, the majority of people who believe in it do so because the clues and evidence in the actual books point towards the truth of the theory. No one is going to rage in the forums if it turns out those clues were misleading us from another truth; we will accept the truth Martin provides and roll with it. So the people who are getting giddy over the prospect of there being a mass flame fest because R+L=J believers were incorrect are going to be sorely disappointed.

That depends. I"ll rage if the clues for non-Jon aren't there. The vast majority of the clues to Jon are much too subtle to be real red herrings, although I suppose it could be a red herring for avid readers.