NorthernXY Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm xenophobic so I'm hoping that RLJ isn't true. I hate the Targs more than Robert. That R+L=fAegeon (or dead baby). Ned promised to raise him as his own and to protect him, but fAegon would never pass as a bastard of Ned's because of the Targaryen look. Ned takes Jon from Ashara and leaves her fAegon or R+L baby that may have died on the way. A Targaryen looking baby could be passed off as a Dayne. My real question/interest is what are Ned's broken promises (plural) that haunt him? Could only be something he did that was selfish. Protecting RLJ from Robert's wrath or lying to Cat about Jon being his wouldn't haunt him. Broken promise to Lyanna and broken promise he made to Ashara to be with her before Brandon died and he took his place to marry Cat. Still working on my theory about N+A=J, because of both houses affiliations with the night and day, the sky. Slightly lends itself to RLJ, but only if Valyria was started by an exiled or fleeing Dayne branch along. Even Ran thinks the events Ned dreamed about at the ToJ didn't actually happen at the ToJ.... Link please. I'd like to read or watch. Also hope the Knight of Laughing Tree is Ned. Nobody expects it because of Ned being the Quiet Wolf, that would have been his chance to break out of his shell and nobody know. The quote from the show, "I don't fight in tournaments because when I fight a man, I don't want him to know what I can do." Ned's first, last and only tournament. Hence why Meera is so flabbergasted Bran never heard the story. Meera knows Bran doesn't know Howland, and a story about a dead sister would be hard for Ned to tell, but Howland told it to his children, hence why Howland was so devoted to Ned. Ned not telling a great story of his youth would be surprising to Meera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Ned's fever dream is based on reality. Dreams aren't all right or all wrong. I'm pretty sure you've dreamed some dreams that involve reality, but actually never happened. the book has it as a dream on milk of the poppy... it also has it as an old dream... GRRM called it a fever dream... Neither have based on reality... and why bother asking.... the questions as to what happened at thee ToJ and why the KG remained at the ToJ have been asked and answered.... Neither support R plus L equals J.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 So tell me, how does Jon knowing what he always knew affect the story in any way? well for one it avoids a dead-horse trope.. so that would make it a better story.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 well for one it avoids a dead-horse trope.. so that would make it a better story.. Tropes wouldn't be tropes if they made a horrible story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I don't think anyone ever said "the dream was 100% what happened". I think people said "This dream has very realistic elements to it and fantastical elements to it, and the realistic elements are very likely Ned's memories and the fantastical elements are not." People? When GRRM explains which parts of Ned's dreams were induced by opiates and which were not, I'll accept it. Until then "people said" doesn't work for me as a proof or anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 People? When GRRM explains which parts of Ned's dreams were induced by opiates and which were not, I'll accept it. Until then "people said" doesn't work for me as a proof or anything at all. GRRM in general lets people figure stuff out for themselves (Oberyn poisoning Tywin). That's what you're supposed to do here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 GRRM in general lets people figure stuff out for themselves (Oberyn poisoning Tywin). That's what you're supposed to do here. GRRM in general lets people figure out stuff for themselves (R+L=/= J). That's what you're supposed to do here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Why can't one beat a dead horse, even if it is a dead horse? Does one need a PhD in Comparative Literature to comment here? ETA: I have nothing against dead horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Why can't one beat a dead horse, even if it is a dead horse? Does one need a PhD in Comparative Literature to comment here? ETA: I have nothing against dead horses. No, a high school diploma is good... even a GED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 People? When GRRM explains which parts of Ned's dreams were induced by opiates and which were not, I'll accept it. Until then "people said" doesn't work for me as a proof or anything at all. Seriously, you're being too pedantic about this. If you are waiting for Martin to tell you how to interpret his work of literature, then you will be waiting a very, very, very, very, very, VEEEEEEERY long time. As for me, I think it would be piss poor writing to stick something like the ToJ dream in the books just to fuck with people...and Martin himself has said that he clearly doesn't do that sort of thing. So, I will see it as I've always seen it- the part up until the fight is as it happened in life, and the part after that was the fever dream, because to me, it's clearly delineated. Feel free to see it as you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly been put in the book for a reason, and the reason isn't just to troll readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 GRRM in general lets people figure out stuff for themselves (R+L=/= J). That's what you're supposed to do here. Ummm...No. I don't know what you've got against R+L=/=J, but even illogically discounting the dream there's far more evidence for R+L=J than any other Jon parentage theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Why can't one beat a dead horse, even if it is a dead horse? Does one need a PhD in Comparative Literature to comment here? ETA: I have nothing against dead horses. you can beat a dead horse... but expecting it to get up and run... or the horse or its beating to be entertaining is going to be disappointed, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 To everyone who proposes R+L=/=J Who are Jon's parents? We know Jon will eventually learn who his parents are. Who do you propose? Ned was too honorable. Brandon was dead during Jon's conception. Benjen was too young. So who? Ned: good people do bad things all the time. Brandon: one can pass off a child as a few months younger. We have no idea Jon's age when he returned. Benjen: Oberyn fathered a child at 13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Rowling was savagely beating a dead horse from about page 18, book 1. Go over to Potter forums and bother them. In comparison, GRRM is not even looking at the horse. This is a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Seriously, you're being too pedantic about this. If you are waiting for Martin to tell you how to interpret his work of literature, then you will be waiting a very, very, very, very, very, VEEEEEEERY long time.As for me, I think it would be piss poor writing to stick something like the ToJ dream in the books just to fuck with people...and Martin himself has said that he clearly doesn't do that sort of thing. So, I will see it as I've always seen it- the part up until the fight is as it happened in life, and the part after that was the fever dream, because to me, it's clearly delineated. I'll wait until the facts are published, and I'll wait until the very last sentence of the very last book, because GRRM told me to. You seem like an intelligent person, I often like your posts and thoughts. But GRRM has made it very clear the dream was a fever dream. He's made it very clear that prophecies should be taken with a grain of salt. Of course he's fucking with people. Presenting dreams and prophecies and visions that aren't clearly real... that is the gist of the whole series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Ummm...No. I don't know what you've got against R+L=/=J, but even illogically discounting the dream there's far more evidence for R+L=J than any other Jon parentage theory. Alright, waiting for your bulleted list that does not include speculation and fanfic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Ned: good people do bad things all the time. Brandon: one can pass off a child as a few months younger. We have no idea Jon's age when he returned. Benjen: Oberyn fathered a child at 13. Ned-Why would he hide the mother from Cat? Brandon-A child maybe, but not a baby. Benjen-Impossible because he was the Stark in WF. Also why would he hide Jon's parentage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Ummm...No. I don't know what you've got against R+L=/=J, but even illogically discounting the dream there's far more evidence for R+L=J than any other Jon parentage theory. we have evidence for Lyanna having a baby Jon did not know who his mother was. Ned had secrets and told lies. illogically discounting the dream.... Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear. I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.. http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy OK give the dream credit for accurately depicting a conversation of about a dozen lines... none of which involve the words Rhaegar, Lyanna, Jon.. or king... now logically accept that you are really asking what shaw asked martin... wait one.. accept Martin's answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Alright, waiting for your bulleted list that does not include speculation and fanfic. I have no idea how you define 'speculation' and 'fanfic' but: 1. Lyanna in her bed of blood 2. Lyanna's promise 3. HotU 4. "My blood" 5. Raven "King" 6. KG with Lyanna And seriously, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115906-rlj-v98/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Ned-Why would he hide the mother from Cat? Brandon-A child maybe, but not a baby. Benjen-Impossible because he was the Stark in WF. Also why would he hide Jon's parentage? Ned - inheritance headaches, maybe it was someone Cat didn't like Brandon - ever spent time around 1 year olds? Some look 8 months old and others look 18 months old. There is crazy differences in size and development. Benjen - he can bang someone in Winterfell. He banged someone he shouldn't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.