Anyone else hoping that R+L=/= J?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

2. Lyanna's promise

Lyanna's promise shows its not Jon. The promise haunts Ned and escalates in KL. Ned succeeded in protecting Jon and the promise makes him stay in KL.

Why would haunting escalate when Ned's relationship with Jon is static?

[Game Of Thrones]

If you actually want to discuss R+L=J:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115906-rlj-v98/

[stateofdissipation]

I have no idea how you define 'speculation' and 'fanfic' but:

1. Lyanna in her bed of blood

2. Lyanna's promise

3. HotU

4. "My blood"

5. Raven "King"

6. KG with Lyanna

And seriously, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115906-rlj-v98/

1. Lyanna had a baby

2. It is unknown

3. Is one of 4 times a blue rose is mentioned... only one involves Rhaegar and Lyanna

4. a son is Blood

5. Jon as king of the North after the red wedding...

6. Has been asked and answered not supporting R plus L equals J

[WeaselPie]

I have no idea how you define 'speculation' and 'fanfic' but:

1. Lyanna in her bed of blood

2. Lyanna's promise

3. HotU

4. "My blood"

5. Raven "King"

6. KG with Lyanna

And seriously, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115906-rlj-v98/

1). Lyanna could have had a baby. Bed of blood doesn't mean it was Jon. Or even Rhaegar's child.

2). Ned's promises, plural

3). Which part? The part you don't agree with, or the part you do?

4). Blood means many things in the series

5). Are you corncoding me?

6). We already talked about that.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Yet, in Ned's dream the KG already knew.

Either you believe Ned's dream 100% or you do not. No picking and choosing. Cheers.

Are you kidding me? I was stating a fact.

[stateofdissipation]

1). I don't know. The presumption is within a week or two, or even the day of, the events of the ToJ because of the fever and the blood. But, I don't know. No one does. I was responding to another thought.

2 and 3). If you believe Ned's dream was an accurate depiction of events, Ned clearly asks the KG about their King, Viserys, on Dragonstone. This means the KG would have known that both R and A were dead.

So either you believe Ned gave 100% perfect account of events or he did not. I think he did not. However, the argument that the KG were guarding a King at the ToJ depends on believing Ned's dream, and believing it in its entirety, so that means believing the KG knew R and A were dead and responded accordingly to Ned's inquiry about Viserys on Dragonstone, and that Lyanna had recently given birth - which does not account for the months they were guarding a supposedly pregnant Lyanna with a fetus of unknown origin, status, health or gender.

The fanfiction of Lyanna's death in relation to the showdown... nothing in the text links the two..

It is like Rossart being hand for 2 weeks... and being appointed after chelsted got roasted. if it was immediately after an army can go 700 miles in less than 2 weeks.. though their pace for the war was 12 miles a day.

after...

[sj4iy]

I'll wait until the facts are published, and I'll wait until the very last sentence of the very last book, because GRRM told me to.

You seem like an intelligent person, I often like your posts and thoughts.

But GRRM has made it very clear the dream was a fever dream.

He did not make it 'very clear'...he was answering a specific question relating to a specific part in the dream. But the most important evidence isn't what Martin may or may not have said, it's the book itself: nowhere in the book, in Ned's chapters, do we see Ned ever thinking "Wow, that dream was fucked up...it was nothing like I remembered it." Instead, we see Ned thinking things like "an old dream" and "as they had been in life" and "he had had that dream in a long time"...all of these indicate that it's NOT simply a fever dream, but it's a dream based on a real life event that happened. If something had been off about the dream, Ned would have mentioned it. We've seen other characters point out perceived mistakes in their dreams before, but Ned didn't point it out about this dream...we even see him CONFIRMING details of the dream right afterwards:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

And as far as what Martin has said, he was referring specifically to this question:

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

The question was specifically about why Ned and the KG would fight each other if Ned had come after Lyanna. It wasn't about whether the dream in general was true or false...we see from Ned's waking thoughts that it was clearly true that his men met the KG there, fought them and that he buried them in the rubble of the ToJ. I think that expanding this quote to mean that Martin said "Well, you can't take anything Ned dreamed here literally' when it was very clearly meant to answer "Why did Ned and the KG fight?" is incorrect, too.

He's made it very clear that prophecies should be taken with a grain of salt.

This has nothing at all to do with prophecy. It's a dream about the past. Prophecy is a completely unrelated subject.

Of course he's fucking with people. Presenting dreams and prophecies and visions that aren't clearly real... that is the gist of the whole series.

He's not fucking with people just to fuck with them. He doesn't present a huge amount of evidence JUST to say "Oh, well, that was ALL a dream, it can't be taken seriously!" Especially after his own character confirms the details of the dream right after dreaming it.

[JasonJD]

We know Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, Jon resembles Arya who resembles Lyanna,

Do they say that Arya looks like Lyanna or just acts like her? I don't remember the former but I do remember the latter. Not saying it's not true. However I thought Lyanna was considered beautiful, while they say Arya looks like a horse.

[Reek Havoc]

Honestly, I don't know why you're all bagging on Weasel. He didn't say R+L=J is impossible, or even improbable, did he? (No, seriously, did he? I'm not seeing it.) He simply said that we don't know enough to know that it's absolutely certain, and to assume that it IS certain is jumping the gun. (Major paraphrasing there, but the meaning is still there.) There is still room for other options without GRRM being a liar or "changing the story".

[teej6]

People? When GRRM explains which parts of Ned's dreams were induced by opiates and which were not, I'll accept it. Until then "people said" doesn't work for me as a proof or anything at all.

But Ran thinks... works for you. BTW Ran never said what you meant. IIRC, what Ran said was that he thought Jon might not have been at the TOJ when Ned & Co arrived because Lyanna was sick and the KG's didn't want Jon to get sick (in case Lyanna's illness was contagious). In this thread you have not provided one plausible counter argument why R+L does not = Jon. As for your insistence that unless GRRM writes something you won't believe it, that's your prerogative. But then again, it's strange you spend time on this forum as most of the posts on this forum are theories (not yet penned by GRRM) and some very good ones and others the most plausible outcome considering the facts we know (like R+L=J).

[Steelcan]

hoping? Yeah sure, by this point now that everyone has called it.

Do I think its gonna happen? Not a chance

[Game Of Thrones]

Honestly, I don't know why you're all bagging on Weasel. He didn't say R+L=J is impossible, or even improbable, did he? (No, seriously, did he? I'm not seeing it.) He simply said that we don't know enough to know that it's absolutely certain, and to assume that it IS certain is jumping the gun. (Major paraphrasing there, but the meaning is still there.) There is still room for other options without GRRM being a liar or "changing the story".

He specifically said R+L=/=J.

GRRM in general lets people figure out stuff for themselves (R+L=/= J). That's what you're supposed to do here.

[stateofdissipation]

He did not make it 'very clear'...he was answering a specific question relating to a specific part in the dream. But the most important evidence isn't what Martin may or may not have said, it's the book itself: nowhere in the book, in Ned's chapters, do we see Ned ever thinking "Wow, that dream was fucked up...it was nothing like I remembered it." Instead, we see Ned thinking things like "an old dream" and "as they had been in life" and "he had had that dream in a long time"...all of these indicate that it's NOT simply a fever dream, but it's a dream based on a real life event that happened. If something had been off about the dream, Ned would have mentioned it. We've seen other characters point out perceived mistakes in their dreams before, but Ned didn't point it out about this dream...we even see him CONFIRMING details of the dream right afterwards:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

And as far as what Martin has said, he was referring specifically to this question:

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

The question was specifically about why Ned and the KG would fight each other if Ned had come after Lyanna. It wasn't about whether the dream in general was true or false...we see from Ned's waking thoughts that it was clearly true that his men met the KG there, fought them and that he buried them in the rubble of the ToJ. I think that expanding this quote to mean that Martin said "Well, you can't take anything Ned dreamed here literally' when it was very clearly meant to answer "Why did Ned and the KG fight?" is incorrect, too.

This has nothing at all to do with prophecy. It's a dream about the past. Prophecy is a completely unrelated subject.

He's not fucking with people just to fuck with them. He doesn't present a huge amount of evidence JUST to say "Oh, well, that was ALL a dream, it can't be taken seriously!" Especially after his own character confirms the details of the dream right after dreaming it.

I think that expanding this quote to mean that Martin said "Well, you can't take anything Ned dreamed here literally' when it was very clearly meant to answer "Why did Ned and the KG fight?" is incorrect, too.

Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

The question was specifically about why Ned and the KG would fight each other if Ned had come after Lyanna.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Huge amount of evidence as to what exactly. Rhaegar ordered the KG to guard the ToJ...

Best evidence you get is lyanna in her bed of blood.

Congrats lyanna had a baby.. most likely Rhaegars.

[JasonJD]

I have no idea how you define 'speculation' and 'fanfic' but:

1. Lyanna in her bed of blood

2. Lyanna's promise

3. HotU

4. "My blood"

5. Raven "King"

6. KG with Lyanna

And seriously, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115906-rlj-v98/

1. Lyanna in her bed of blood - Could be anything, birth of another child, being violently raped, being stabbed by Rhaegar prior to leaving for the Trident, thus depriving the traitor Robert of what he went to war for in the first place, he was a Targ after all.

2. Lyanna's promise - Comes up the most in context of Robert than anything.

3. HotU - A prophesy, as usual in ASoIaF, can be interpreted multiple ways.

5. Raven "King" - Bird repeating a word it previously heard, as known to do. What makes that bird psychic anyway? If Raven's know the truth and are yelling it, then Jon = Corn.

6. KG with Lyanna - They were ordered to remain, to keep Robert and Eddard from their trophy, especially if he loses. And their knees don't bend easily, ie not as easily as say Selmy.

I've had a lot of dreams recalling events that have happened in the past, none of which were 'Robocop memory' accurate or even close.

[WeaselPie]

He specifically said R+L=/=J.

No, I used your statement to form my sentence about another statement,

And thanks Reek... great name!

[JasonJD]

But Ran thinks... works for you. BTW Ran never said what you meant. IIRC, what Ran said was that he thought Jon might not have been at the TOJ when Ned & Co arrived because Lyanna was sick and the KG's didn't want Jon to get sick (in case Lyanna's illness was contagious). In this thread you have not provided one plausible counter argument why R+L does not = Jon. As for your insistence that unless GRRM writes something you won't believe it, that's your prerogative. But then again, it's strange you spend time on this forum as most of the posts on this forum are theories (not yet penned by GRRM) and some very good ones and others the most plausible outcome considering the facts we know (like R+L=J).

I come to a forum to explore possibilities, but like Weasel, I don't consider those explorations at canon, regardless of how likely, until its written on the page. So no, it's not really that strange.

[Game Of Thrones]

I am not an expert on R+L=J and its intricacies.

If you actually wish to have a debate, go to R+L=J v.98, which is the thread for criticizing R+L=J as well. If you want to have a thread where you can spread R+L=/=J all you wish without getting stomped on, feel free to stay here.

Bye.

[J. Stargaryen]

Hey everyone, remember when I was referring to WP as a female and she questioned that. Well, here's why I was doing so:

I'm a she, not a he. And if an entire canon is based on a hard-to-find SSM (which isn't even really an SSM) then I still stand by what I said: if that is the only evidence against my theory, I can still debate it Why not post all my evolving debates, and not just pick and choose, J Star?

--------------really out of the thread, I promise for the third time, mods!

- Link

She? And I'm not the one defending a thousand pages of "proofs" that are nothing but fanfic and Monday morning speculation.

PS, you edit plenty

- Link

Kind of an odd thing to do, no?

[teej6]

I come to a forum to explore possibilities, but like Weasel, I don't consider those explorations at canon, regardless of how likely, until its written on the page. So no, it's not really that strange.

I haven't heard any subscriber to the R+L = J theory describe it as canon. Those are your words not mine. It's still a theory and in my mind the most plausible outcome considering the facts we know. To state that I won't believe something unless and until it's penned down by the author while debating the merits of a theory is what is strange.

[stateofdissipation]

Interesting point....

if R plus L does equal J... why the need for fanfiction to fill in the gaps.

The line between canon and conjecture gets smudged an awful lot in R plus L...

does not exist

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

R and L were in love and she ran away rather than marry Robert.

amgibgous

Our dreams are not always literal. ---GRRM

by not literal GRRM means literal

completely solid

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.​---GRRM

This means that Rhaegar "the dragon" practiced polygamy---without an actual dragon and people would not have objected...