Anyone else hoping that R+L=/= J?

[sj4iy]

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

Absolutely nothing in the above constitutes as 'evidence' that he is correct.

It confirms what came before..

I mean your bastard's mother.? (Robert)

"Her name was Wylla," Ned Replied---aGoT page 105

He thinks of Jon in that Jon has to live the life of a bastard,

"Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?" --- aGoT page 368

Wow, that's not even really trying, is it?

Trying no.. fanfiction yes... text face... your version the life of a bastard Ned thrust upon Jon...

The passage was given as a direct counter to another bogus assertion of RLJ... Ned never once thinks of Jon as a bastard.

It's no more 'evidence' or 'fact' than anyone else's speculation.

Like face means life of a bastard..

...the way you compose your posts makes absolutely no sense to me. There's a 'quote' function that works very well and is not nearly as confusing.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

There's no 'mental gymnastics' to it. Ned's thinking about what a difficult life bastards lead because of Robert. He thinks of Jon...you know, the kid who has to live the life of a bastard. Never does he think "my bastard, Jon" or "Jon, his bastard" as the other poster said. Never. And if he WERE Ned's bastard, you'd think Ned would think that at SOME point. But he never does all throughout the book.

You're inserting the idea of a hard life as a bastard.

Ned is being thinking about the subject of divinity here. He's thinking about gods' opinions about bastards. Ned's actions do not affect the way gods perceive Jon.

Because the main reason bastards are frowned upon is because the gods (supposedly) disapprove of bastards. Therefore, he thinks of how Jon's life has been - the life of a bastard, right after dealing with (yet another) of Robert's bastards, and how their life isn't always easy - especially because Robert forgets about them.

Ned in no way changes the way gods see Jon.

[stateofdissipation]

There's no 'mental gymnastics' to it. Ned's thinking about what a difficult life bastards lead because of Robert. He thinks of Jon. There's nothing there that says that Ned thinks of Jon as HIS bastard. Nothing.

Ok.. there is but you do not like it...

Now explain away on how Ned Knows who Robert is talking about if he never thinks of Jon as HIS bastard...

I mean your bastard's mother.? (Robert)

"Her name was Wylla," Ned Replied---aGoT page 105

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

[JonSnow4President]

You literally just imputed content into the text that wasn't there before in order to try and make it say something it doesn't. So yes, 10/10.

“I named her Barra,” she said as the child nursed. “She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair...”

“She does.” Eddard Stark had touched the baby’s fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert’s firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.

“Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it... as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is.”

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

“And tell him I’ve not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he’d come back. So you’ll tell him I’m waiting, won’t you? I don’t want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.”

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

Point being, there's a bastard right in front of him. She's destined for a harder life than her half siblings, because of her birth. You know who else is living as a bastard thanks to Ned?

Ned thinks of Jon when thinking about a bastard, in the midst of thinking how their life is harder than others. If Jon is his, it's because he fathered a bastard. If Jon is Lyanna's, it's because he proclaims to the world that Jon is a bastard to hide his heritage. Regardless, Jon is treated as a society as a bastard, so his life is harder than his half siblings/cousins. I don't see how Ned thinking about bastards and thinking about Jon means that Jon must be a bastard, and not that Jon is treated as a bastard because Ned is pretending he's a bastard.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Point being, there's a bastard right in front of him. She's destined for a harder life than her half siblings, because of her birth. You know who else is living as a bastard thanks to Ned?

Ned thinks of Jon when thinking about a bastard, in the midst of thinking how their life is harder than others. If Jon is his, it's because he fathered a bastard. If Jon is Lyanna's, it's because he proclaims to the world that Jon is a bastard to hide his heritage. Regardless, Jon is treated as a society as a bastard, so his life is harder than his half siblings/cousins. I don't see how Ned thinking about bastards and thinking about Jon means that Jon must be a bastard, and not that Jon is treated as a bastard because Ned is pretending he's a bastard.

Gods, he is talking about gods' opinions. He is not thinking about a hard life. Gods' opinions. Not a hard life. Gods' opinions. Not a hard life.

[Hardtack]

in the midst of thinking how their life is harder than others.

Is this in some other passage I missed? Because it sure as hell isn't in the one you quoted.

[stateofdissipation]

...the way you compose your posts makes absolutely no sense to me. There's a 'quote' function that works very well and is not nearly as confusing.

canon... poster... asod

and the and the quote function leaves the quote off the reply...

I often post with no more than a word or 2 outside of quotes... a reply to it would look like

and

and

and

[JonSnow4President]

Gods, he is talking about gods' opinions. He is not thinking about a hard life. Gods' opinions. Not a hard life. Gods' opinions. Not a hard life.

The entire reasons that bastards are disinherited and treated as lesser human beings than their family is because the gods frown on that relationship. The supposed god's reasons justify the earthly actions that force Jon to live as lesser being to Robb in universe.

[sj4iy]

In any case, I never used "Ned never thinks that Jon is a bastard" as evidence for R+L=J. This isn't even about R+L=J. I simply said that it is NOT evidence supporting Jon being Ned's bastard. I'm tired of obfuscating the point.

There's no concrete evidence that supports Jon being Ned's bastard. It comes down to speculation, gossip and Ned's confession.

There is a lot of evidence AGAINST Ned being Jon's bastard, though. So much so that it easily outweighs the alternative.

[Mikkel]

You're inserting the idea of a hard life as a bastard.

Ned is being thinking about the subject of divinity here. He's thinking about gods' opinions about bastards. Ned's actions do not affect the way gods perceive Jon.

No, but how the gods see bastards has influenced how they're often on the fringe of society, and are looked down on by many. So how the gods (supposedly) sees bastards definitely influences Jon's life, even if these gods know that he might not be one.

Also, again, I'm not convinced Jon isn't a bastard, or that if he isn't, that Ned knows this.

Ned in no way changes the way gods see Jon.

See above for why the opinion of the gods influences Jon's life, even without the gods being real.

[sj4iy]

<snip>

I just wanted to say that your sig made me LOL. XD

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

No, but how the gods see bastards has influenced how they're often on the fringe of society, and are looked down on by many. So how the gods (supposedly) sees bastards definitely influences Jon's life, even if these gods know that he might not be one.

The entire reasons that bastards are disinherited and treated as lesser human beings than their family is because the gods frown on that relationship. The supposed god's reasons justify the earthly actions that force Jon to live as lesser being to Robb in universe.

But, he's not thinking about society. He's isn't thinking about inheritance. He's thinking about gods.

He is having a thought about divinity. He's talking about gods frowning upon bastards and giving men lust. He's not talking about society metaphorically. After all, society does not give men lust. He's not even thinking about gods taking actions against bastards.

He's saying gods don't like bastards and gods give men lust. And he thinks about how that's unusual. That's it.

Gods know Jon's true nature. The thought makes no sense unless Ned believes Jon to be a bastard.

[Bloodrobin]

Putting it back into context changes nothing.

Ned finishes visiting bastards. Thinks about Jon. Thinks about the nature of bastards in the universe. Asks about Robert's bastards.

It's bastards, bastards, bastards, bastards.

There also is this very important "so".

If the gods frowned so on bastards

"So" as in pointing to the example in the previous sentence, which is Jon.

Note that Ned asks why the gods fill men with such lusts rather than why they filled him with such lust. We also see no indication of shame or discomfort from Ned in his thoughts here regarding men fathering bastards even though we have seen indications of shame from him when questioned specifically by Robert about fathering Jon:

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled . “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? [...] You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

This comment by Ned about bastards and lusts is not at all evidence that Ned fathered Jon. Of course, it isn't evidence that he did so either. Bit it is the kind of statement that allows room for Jon to have been fathered by someone else without giving it away. If R + L = J, then this is exactly how GRRM would want to write it so as to hint at the truth but not give it away.

[stateofdissipation]

In any case, I never used "Ned never thinks that Jon is a bastard" as evidence for R+L=J. This isn't even about R+L=J. I simply said that it is NOT evidence supporting Jon being Ned's bastard. I'm tired of obfuscating the point.

There's no concrete evidence that supports Jon being Ned's bastard. It comes down to speculation, gossip and Ned's confession.

There is a lot of evidence AGAINST Ned being Jon's bastard, though. So much so that it easily outweighs the alternative.

Like what....

a blue rose in a wall of ice... from the HotU.

add some weight to that...

KG has already been asked and answered.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

The promise to protect a baby from Robert has been debunked.

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.--Tywin --aSoS chapter 53

Now lets see what Ned thought about it."The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me, A crown... it was the girl I prayed them for, Your sister safe...and mine again as she was meant to be. I ask you Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike." --Robert aGoT 111

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343.

Lyanna ran off from her betrothed has been debunked

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/

The polygamy has been debunked...

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/2997/

[Bloodrobin]

Gods, he is talking about gods' opinions. He is not thinking about a hard life. Gods' opinions. Not a hard life. Gods' opinions. Not a hard life.

So why is Ned suddenly thinking about the gods' opinions of bastards? Does GRRM just drop the gods into the conversation ex nihilo, or is there something in the immediate context that would cause Ned to have this thought?

[sj4iy]

Like what....

a blue rose in a wall of ice... from the HotU.

add some weight to that...

KG has already been asked and answered.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

The promise to protect a baby from Robert has been debunked.

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.--Tywin --aSoS chapter 53

Now lets see what Ned thought about it."The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me, A crown... it was the girl I prayed them for, Your sister safe...and mine again as she was meant to be. I ask you Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike." --Robert aGoT 111

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343.

Lyanna ran off from her betrothed has been debunked

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/

The polygamy has been debunked...

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/2997/

...I already said that I am not arguing that, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with R+L=J. I was dealing with the wholly separate issue of whether or not Jon is Ned's bastard without any reference to any other theory. Another poster said "There's a lot of evidence supporting Ned being Jon's father" and I said "no there's not".

[Mikkel]

But, he's not thinking about society. He's isn't thinking about inheritance. He's thinking about gods.

He is having a thought about divinity. He's talking about gods frowning upon bastards and giving men lust. He's not talking about society metaphorically. After all, society does not give men lust. He's not even thinking about gods taking actions against bastards.

He's saying gods don't like bastards and gods give men lust. And he thinks about how that's unusual. That's it.

Gods know Jon's true nature. The thought makes no sense unless Ned believes Jon to be a bastard.

You don't know that. He's merely thinking on why (as far as he knows) gods frown on bastards, and what effect that has on these bastards. And why they fill men with lust, in this case the man in question is Robert, not Ned. There's nothing about inheritance in there though, that I can see - not sure where you get that from?

The thought makes the most sense if Ned blieves Jon to be a bastard, but it can make sense even if he knows he isn't. None of which requires Jon to be Ned's, or precludes him from being Lyanna's (bastard).

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

So why is Ned suddenly thinking about the gods' opinions of bastards? Does GRRM just drop the gods into the conversation ex nihilo, or is there something in the immediate context that would cause Ned to have this thought?

Well, it's not so sudden. And it an internal conversation.

He leaves the whorehouse. Is riding. Thinks about Jon. Thinks about gods and bastards. Asks LF about Robert's bastards.

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

...I already said that I am not arguing that, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with R+L=J. I was dealing with the wholly separate issue of whether or not Jon is Ned's bastard without any reference to any other theory. Another poster said "There's a lot of evidence supporting Ned being Jon's father" and I said "no there's not".

I never said "a lot". And I don't think Ned is Jon's father.

My statement was that it has the most evidence. All of the theories have almost no evidence. So, having a little makes it the most.

[stateofdissipation]

...I already said that I am not arguing that, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with R+L=J. I was dealing with the wholly separate issue of whether or not Jon is Ned's bastard without any reference to any other theory. Another poster said "There's a lot of evidence supporting Ned being Jon's father" and I said "no there's not".

I simply said that it is NOT evidence supporting Jon being Ned's bastard

ok... if you take away the evidence supporting Jon being Ned's bastard.... there is not any.

How do we accomplish that?

[Mikkel]

He leaves the whorehouse. Is riding. Thinks about Jon. Thinks about gods and bastards. Asks LF about Robert's bastards.

He visits the whorehouse, where he talks with the mother of Robert's latest bastard. He thinks about the life of Robert's bastards, and how Robert soon forgets about them. Then he leaves, his mind obviously on what he's just experienced, recalls his own interaction with a bastard, and his own role in creating said bastard (whatever it is), and he thinks about how it's strange for the gods to on the one hand frown on bastards, and on the other fill men with lusts that makes them create bastards. Context is pretty important here, and the first part can't be removed.