The warrior prophet - questions and spoilers ahead

[Jo498]

I took the liberty to start another thread. I am now through with the warrior prophet and do not want to be completely spoilered by the roman numerals Bakker threads nor do I want to spoiler to much in the thread where someone asked whether he should start reading the series. So what follows will be unsystematic comments, questions etc. I will include spoiler tags in this first post, but would prefer to skip them later in the discussion, because this is quite inconvenient.

I will start with some questions and maybe add comments about things I liked/disliked in later posts. If answering the question would be terrible spoilers for the 3rd book, it would be nice to point that out.

1) The "mark" of the magic users.

Are there somehow two marks: one that marks the "few" and can be recognized by other magically gifted ones (Akka recognizes that the Shria has it) and the one that marks an actual user. The latter is apparently absent with the Cishaurim and with whatever magic the skin spies have. But the Cishaurim must be gifted in the first sense, or not? In the case of Kellhus Akka needs the doll to find the mark in the first sense. Why does he need the doll?

I'll skip the possible inconsistencies of magic vs. chorae etc. for now; it is handled reasonably well.

2) skin spies.

O.k., I can't really visualize how a "spider" can fold to form a face, lack of imagination. Disregard that. How is this supposed to work? Do they "possess" the original body or do they also shape just any body according to the one the want to mimic. As the mimicked ones have also superhuman strength, reflexes (and mighty phalloi) there must be more than just a face.

Kellhus realized that "Sarcellus" changed his host after the doomed charge against the Cishaurim (or did another skin spy mimick Sarcellus?) Apparently the same skin spy also mimicked Kellhus when raping Serwe and taunting Cnaiur? So can they shift bodyshapes at will? It was seriously injured by fire. What happened when Martemus tried to kill Conphas. "Sarcellus" saved Conphas, but could not reveal his form, did he lack a body as host.

The other spy died from the plague? Or did it die, because its host (that Aioni leader with the pseudo-babylonian or whatever name) died from the plague?

3) black semen rapists. These are not the skin spies, right? But they may appear in human form (Esmenets encounter/rape/questioning) What about the bird with the human head? Is this one bound to that "Synthese" form or can he shape shift as well? (He seems to be the same guy who in human form kills Akka's informant at the beginning.)

4) Nonmen.

According to Akka's speech about what led to the 1st apokalypse they are a bit like Tolkien's elves. I thought it was another "neutral" fraction, living reclusive in this northwestern corner (close to where Kellhus encounters one in the beginning). But in the 2nd book's epilogue (a bit too disgusting for its own sake) they seem to work with the Sranc and the Inchoroi.

5) the last battle in book 2

Why did the Inrithi win against all odds? Just religious fervor inspired by Kellhus? What is Cnaiur'S "secret of battle". After the elaborate battles before where desaster threatened, but the Holy war prevailed in the end, it was at least made somewhat plausible how it came about. Not so here.

[Anatúrinbor]

1. Achamian did not see the Mark on the Shriah. Maithanet recognized Achamian as a sorcerer ("your kind are not welcome here") so Achamian concluded that he must be one of the Few. (Because Maithanet saw the Mark on Achamian.)

2. Skin-spies do not posses or take over hosts. They are separate entities that can take on the shape of their targets. And yes, the skin-spy that initially impersonated Sarcellus was killed (by Kellhus IIRC) and replaced with another Skin-spy. (Maëngi ---> Gaörta)

There is more on the Synthese, the Inchoroi, and the Nonmen in the third book. Mostly in the glossary.

[Happy Ent]

Hi. You are wise to stay out of the roman numerals-threads.

Suggestion: rename this thread to Warrior-Prophet spoiler thread or something like that, so people know if it’s safe to click, and what kind of feed-back we can give without spoiling you.

1. Sorcerers gain their mark when they first cast a spell, not before. The Few cannot be visually recognised if they cast no spells. (Kellhus is of the Few, which Acka cannot detect by just looking at him. On the other hand, even non-schooled Kellhus recognised “strange torsion” about the Nonman he encounters with Leweth.)

2. Skin spies do need need an original to mimick. RSB clearly changed his mind about this while writing the books; the Thing Called Geshrunni in the first Acka chapter of Darkness seems to have removed Geshrunni’s face for the purpose of impersonating him, but later skin spies do not need that.

Yes, skin spies also can change their bodies, presumably even their anatomical sex. Sometimes they forget to maintain the illusion, there’s a cute incident where The Thing Called Skeaös forgets to become exhausted when the Imperial nephew races him up the stairs to the Andiamine Heights.

3. We do not know who the black semen rapist. I think I convinced myself that it is the Synthese using a glamour. (The Synthese is a remote-controlled construct “inhabited” by the Inchroi Aurang.) My alternative hypothesis is that it is Aurang himself, again wearing a glamour, but then how did he squeeze through the window? And why fly all the way from Golgotterath to Sumna and back?

4. Nonman are indeed the equivalent of Noldorin Elves. They fought the Great Evil long before humanity became part of the conflict. Some of them have gone over to the Dark Side. (This is no contradiction. When you later learn more about the motivation of the Inchoroi, you may find the “turned” Nonmen’s position quite sensible. I know I do.)

5. The Inrithi could not be routed. Indomitable conviction. You may find this implausible (i certainly did), but this whole story arc follows close the Battle of Antioch. In Real Life the transformative event was the discovery of the Holy Lance, in Bakkerverse it is the Circumfiction and Resurrection of the Saviour. (imagine the Battle of Antioch but with Christ Risen from the Grave, in full view of thousands, instead of a shifty piece of wood.)

[Jo498]

Thanks for the replies. I should have re-read the scene with Akka and the Shriah. Still, how can the Schoolmen detect their prospective students? This is probably why I thought there was a mark for non-schooled sorcerers.

Another magic question: Akka called the doll despite the magic-blocking circle, I guess. Apparently the circle does not completely block magic, but causes terrible pain if someone tries do do magic within.

(I am just reminded that there is a similar, albeit humorous scene in Goethe's Faust. In an early scene Mephisto is trapped in Faust's study he had been able to enter, because of an incompletely drawn pentagram (or because Faust brought him in voluntarily). But apparently the pentagram is strong enough to prevent his leaving (and by the laws of devilry he has to leave by the door he entered). So he conjures up insects and other vermin to gnaw away part of the threshold to destroy the pentagram so he can leave.)

Apparently I misunderstood the "skin spies" somewhat. I was pretty sure that the spider-like thing only formed the head of the mimicked person.

Maybe reading to quickly in a foreign language caused this confusion, but the focus was alway on the faces and I had the impression that when killed the spider-like pseudofaces were distinct from the "possessed" bodies. In any case it makes more sense (although boggles the imagination even more) to explain the supernatural strength and speed. So apparently the Thing called Cepheramunni actually died of the plague.

[Happy Ent]

The spider-like limbs indeed only construct the faces. We must imagine that the internal body-stuff forming muscles, bones, etc is somewhat malleable. But less attention is given to those parts of the anatomy. (Which makes sense, given the incredible face-reading skills of the human brain.)

But it’s magic-tech that you aren’t supposed to think to deeply about. (How do they make skin wrinkle in a realistic fashion? Do they have follicles that can grow hair really fast? Is the body mass adjusted by drinking lots of fluid when changing from a diminutive female to Sarcellus? Etc.)

The skin spies do not “possess” (mind-conrol) bodies. There is nothing magical about them. The skin spies are mundane artefacts of the tekne, think about them as the T-1000 Terminator. The Consult has not found a way to reliably binding souls to the skin spies, so they are generally unsouled creatures. (Think of them as artificial intelligences. They are genetically conditioned to be subservient by the Consult, solving the Machine Intelligence problem that Bakker and many transhumanists worry about.)

[Happy Ent]

I’m not sure the Uroborian circle cancels magic as much as it just makes it incredibly painful, directing all power back at the caster many times over. (This would be consistent with the Worm devouring its tale. The concept of actor and object are identified by this image, and the same happens with the language-based magic).

Akka manages to say two words before losing consciousness because of the pain. These two words are likely the name of the Whati doll, so that’s all he needed. Doll activates, walks back, scrapes, Akka goes medieval on the Scarlet Spires.

[SkynJay]

Well I am clearly due a reread, I firmly had skin skies and black seman tied together in my mind. Whoops.

[Happy Ent]

We know nothing about the colour of skin spy seed, as far as I know.

But both Esmi and Serwë have extensive congress with skin spies (Esmi with the Thing Called Sarcellus, repeatedly, and Serwë with the Thing Called Kellhus). Neither woman notices or reports anything strange.

Interestingly, now that we discuss the mechanics, Serwë actually notices that the Thing is a bit off:

She lay on her side, her face buried in the cushions where Kellhus had thrust it. He plumbed her from behind, his chest a furnace across her back, his hand holding her knee high. How different he felt!

“How what, sweet Serwe?”

He pressed deep and she moaned. “So different,” she breathed. “You feel so different.” “For you, sweet Serwe... For you...”

For her! She ground against him, savoured his difference. “Yessss,” she hissed.

So the illusion is not quite perfect. (The Thing Called Kellhus’s face, in the other hand, is presumably perfect.)

Another cute detail, discussed many times here, is that from Serwë’s point of view, the Thing has haloed hands. (So the haloes are in people’s minds.)

[Jo498]

Actually the wiki also claims black semen for the skin spies, but this cannot be right. Esmenet is horrified at the occurence after her "questioning" and later she was "Sarcellus" mistress for weeks (or months?) and would surely have noticed.

[sologdin]

re: interrogatory no. 5: this is one of the most famous bits in the entire story:

The Holy War had been absolved. Forgiven. The surviving grandees were strung from many-boughed sycamores, and in the evening light they hung, like drowned men floating up from the deep. And though years would pass, none would dare touch them. They would sag from the nails that fixed them, collapse into heaps about the base of their trees. And to anyone who listened, they would whisper a revelation...The secret of battle. Indomitable conviction. Unconquerable belief.

CuS's 'secret of battle' is disclosed during the second major battle of the book, when he teaches AK nomadic pastoralist military theory. the 'secret' boils down to morale.

[Jo498]

o.k., but most of the Inrithi had very strong morale before, otherwise they would have been routed at the very first battle before the support finally came. The problem before the desert march was rather to balance fanatic foolhardiness with battle tactics.

I got this, but was not sure whether I had missed some special magical component.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Huh. I always thought Cnaiur's secret of battle was geophilia.

[sologdin]

strong morale before

sure. check back through the comments of CuS regarding how the other side has already lost and the battle is performed in order to persuade the enemy of its loss. war is a form of rhetoric in this conception, and should accordingly be subject to AK's probability trance in predicting the most effective way to make the presentation to the enemy that they have been defeated.

[Anatúrinbor]

I guess the Skin-spies wouldn't know the correct penis size of the person they're impersonating.

[SilentRoamer]

haha Ruiner.

Fairly sure they got the size wrong with Istriya...!

[sologdin]

inchies always send willy shots before traumatic insemination.

[jurble]

2. Skin spies do need need an original to mimick. RSB clearly changed his mind about this while writing the books; the Thing Called Geshrunni in the first Acka chapter of Darkness seems to have removed Geshrunni’s face for the purpose of impersonating him, but later skin spies do not need that.

Later, Iyokus mentions another faceless body was found some years back. I believe the point of removing the face isn't necessarily because Bakker changed his mind, but rather that the removal of the face prevents the identification of the body with the replaced individual i.e. the prior faceless body was

Cepheramunni

.

[Happy Ent]

Thank you jurbs, that makes sense.

[Diziet]

CuS's 'secret of battle' is disclosed during the second major battle of the book, when he teaches AK nomadic pastoralist military theory. the 'secret' boils down to morale.

The Vulgar Holy War should have defeated the Fanim then.

[sologdin]

as the VHW lost, can there be any question that it lacked ICUB?