Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I've seen several people suggesting Jon pulled a Ramsay and that's how he took the castle: he fought Rowan's forces under Stannis' banners and he tricked the garrison into opening the gates. Could be, but I don't like that theory that much, not only because I think it wouldn't be exactly original from Martin's part to have 2 castles taken the same way, but also because I don't know if the Golden Company could (or would) really take on Rowan's forces as it is: “Four castles in as many days, that’s a splendid start, but we are still only at half strength. We need to wait for the rest of my men. We are missing horses as well, and the elephants. Wait, I say.” Of course, this is Harry Strickland speaking, and Jon thinks he's an old woman and he refuses to wait, etc, etc. But Harry has a point: so far they've done well taking castles unawares, but engaging on direct battle with a semi-prepared army (a token one, but still) is a different thing entirely. Still, Jon says they would ride towards Storm's End...and with Aegon. So what gives? Here's my theory: Jon Connington found out (from the letters Haldon was reading) that Rowan was leading the siege, so his plan is to turn him to their side Jon says: “And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach.” Again the Golden Company's mysterious "friends in the Reach" So why do I think Rowan might be one of these friends? 1) First off, House Rowan has a history of opposing their liege lords in favor of the Targs, since they did just that during the Dance when they declared for Rhaenyra 2) Since the beginning, Lord Rowan had zero love for the Lannisters, and seems particularly disgusted by Tywin's killing of Elia's kids: “Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.” So what could Jon have offered Rowan? I don't know. Maybe the promise of lands and riches. Maybe the sight of Aegon was enough to turn him. Maybe Jon changed his mind about marriage when Aegon joined the plan and reluctantly promised to marry Rowan's daughter We now know they succesfully took Storm's End, and that Arianne heard the battle was bloody , but we don't know which side got bloody My thinking is that they could have pulled a Ramsay but with a twist: Jon Connington and Company (pun intended) come riding in Baratheon banners. They engage in (pretend) battle with Rowan's forces. The garrison opens the gate to help, and BAM!, both Jon and Rowan join forces against them and take the castle What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I think he might be part of those "friends in the Reach" Peake was talking about. When he said that the force of HG wasn't as strong as Mace thought, he probably meant that not all of his bannermen were loyal or pleased with him as a lord and they might have been secretly plotting to depose Mace taking a chance during the Wot5K. After all, he looked more worried now on getting busy with the Lannister than defend the Shield Islands from the Ironborn. The Peakes from the GC also have relatives in the Reach as House Peake still exists there. Many other members of the GC "claim" to be from certain Houses but it's not sure that they are speaking the truth. If so, then they're probably also confabulating with house Rowan. There is a Rowan married to Baelor Hightower, and Rowan's wife is a Redwyne, and there is a chance none of them are very happy with the Tyrell-Lannister alliance and they choose Aegon instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 I think he might be part of those "friends in the Reach" Peake was talking about. When he said that the force of HG wasn't as strong as Mace thought, he probably meant that not all of his bannermen were loyal or pleased with him as a lord and they might have been secretly plotting to depose Mace taking a chance during the Wot5K. After all, he looked more worried now on getting busy with the Lannister than defend the Shield Islands from the Ironborn. The Peakes from the GC also have relatives in the Reach as House Peake still exists there. Many other members of the GC "claim" to be from certain Houses but it's not sure that they are speaking the truth. If so, then they're probably also confabulating with house Rowan. There is a Rowan married to Baelor Hightower, and Rowan's wife is a Redwyne, and there is a chance none of them are very happy with the Tyrell-Lannister alliance and they choose Aegon instead. Yep, and I think the Rowan's changing sides could cause a chain-reaction amongst the other bannermen, especially those you mentioned, and Randyll Tarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 How about the letter that Stannis is dead is spread across Westeros like Wildfire and Storm's End simply opens up and switches sides as no one in their right mind would follow Shireen Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The thing is that it is no longer a secret that a pretender Aegon is marching with the Golden Company to Storm´s end, as we know from the Epilogue. i don´t see how they could fake being in service of stannis, unless SE is completely isolated from ravens and they are the only ones that lack this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 How about the letter that Stannis is dead is spread across Westeros like Wildfire and Storm's End simply opens up and switches sides as no one in their right mind would follow Shireen Baratheon. Then Jon's comment about taking SE by guile and the rumors about the bloody battle would be pointless and misleading (not to mention anticlimatic). Besides, I don't see Stannis' men surrendering the castle to a random kid claiming to be Aegon, of all people The thing is that it is no longer a secret that a pretender Aegon is marching with the Golden Company to Storm´s end, as we know from the Epilogue. i don´t see how they could fake being in service of stannis, unless SE is completely isolated from ravens and they are the only ones that lack this information. Isn't a common practice to shoot down all ravens flying to and from a besieged place, precisely to avoid information from getting in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Isn't a common practice to shoot down all ravens flying to and from a besieged place, precisely to avoid information from getting in? From a besieged castle is one thing, you just have to watch birds flying out of a single tower, the other way around sounds impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 From a besieged castle is one thing, you just have to watch birds flying out of a single tower, the other way around sounds impossible. Wouldn't it be just shooting birds flying towards a single tower? Unless the ravens land anywhere in the castle, but I don't recall that being the case Anyway, there are lots of rumors going around about the GC and Aegon, so the garrison at SE should be on a relative alert mode. But I think seeing newcomers in Baratheon colors fighting (convincingly) the Rowans would be enough to make them drop their guard for a bit. Also, they're probably hungry and desperate enough at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Then Jon's comment about taking SE by guile and the rumors about the bloody battle would be pointless and misleading (not to mention anticlimatic). Besides, I don't see Stannis' men surrendering the castle to a random kid claiming to be Aegon, of all people Isn't a common practice to shoot down all ravens flying to and from a besieged place, precisely to avoid information from getting in? The claim of a bloody battle might be embelished to enhance Aegon's prowess. Jon Connington was once but briefly lord of Storm's end. Also, if you are in Command of Storm's end, Stannis is reported dead, there is absolutely no one else to fight for and you hate the Lannisters. yeah, Jon Connington and Rheagar's long lost son seem as good as any. Besides, they will take the castle by force if need by so why not join them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 First, the GC's campaign is a bit messy, despite their success taking the Griffin's Roost and many other castles. Jon says he wanted to send the message to the IT about him only wanting his lands and titles back, and ten days later, they're already marching to SE. His original plan made sense: wait in the Roost, gather forces from the Reach and Stormlands and then, start taking other castles and finally, SE. All of that while the IT thought he did nothing suspicious. But they didn't do that: they took the castles, even before SE, and the IT not only knows Jon is back, they already know he has a Targaryen pretender, which was something they shouldn't have known at all. So, if the Throne knows this, as the Stormlands Castles have been taken one after another, then there is a big chance Storm's End already knows they're marching to them. Then Jon's comment about taking SE by guile and the rumors about the bloody battle would be pointless and misleading (not to mention anticlimatic). Besides, I don't see Stannis' men surrendering the castle to a random kid claiming to be Aegon, of all people I think the bloody battle is a rumour. The whole thing probably caused some deaths, but it wasn't a butchery. Because Aegon should present himself as a saviour, not as a murderer. And he needs to let other Lords see that he means no harm to them or their lands, and he's there to fight their common enemy: the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Wouldn't it be just shooting birds flying towards a single tower? Unless the ravens land anywhere in the castle, but I don't recall that being the case Anyway, there are lots of rumors going around about the GC and Aegon, so the garrison at SE should be on a relative alert mode. But I think seeing newcomers in Baratheon colors fighting (convincingly) the Rowans would be enough to make them drop their guard for a bit. Also, they're probably hungry and desperate enough at this point I don´t think its the same.. ravens coming from all directions, even if to a single tower.. Do we have an example, of all the sieges of asoiaf, were the besiegeing army can shoot down ravens going to the castle? But lets asume SE is indeed isolated. JonCon needs not pull a Ramsay here. Rowan would obviously retreat or yield as soon as he saw the Golden Company riding hard against him.. no need to have them killed. the bloody part of the battle would be inside the castle when the fools open the gates.. two alternative ways he could take the castle, even if they knew the GC is not fighting for Stannis.. a) they found edric storm in Lys. b) hostages... some of the ranking members of the token force have relatives among the hostages taken by the Golden Company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 But lets asume SE is indeed isolated. JonCon needs not pull a Ramsay here. Rowan would obviously retreat or yield as soon as he saw the Golden Company riding hard against him.. no need to have them killed. the bloody part of the battle would be inside the castle when the fools open the gates.. two alternative ways he could take the castle, even if they knew the GC is not fighting for Stannis.. a) they found edric storm in Lys. B) hostages... some of the ranking members of the token force have relatives among the hostages taken by the Golden Company. Good points, but I do think a short battle with Rowan (feigned or exaggerated, whatever) would be necessary, precisely because of what you said: with all the rumors going about, and nothing about Stannis heading back south, the garrison at SE wouldn't open the gates to anyone. So, they would have to be tricked, because even if Rowan yields immediately, SE remains an impregnable fortress. ETA: I like the thought of Edric Storm, though. It would certainly be a convincing "proof" for the garrison that they're on Stannis' side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'm on board with this. Everyone talks about Tarly betraying the Tyrells, but I think Mathis Rowan is much more likely to turn cloak first. Good thread, Jot(E)D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 ETA: I like the thought of Edric Storm, though. It would certainly be a convincing "proof" for the garrison that they're on Stannis' side I don't. If Connington has Edric Storm, that won't end up very well for him :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 I don't. If Connington has Edric Storm, that won't end up very well for him :/ Why? Two Storm hostages are too much to handle :p? Seriously, why, though? I'm on board with this. Everyone talks about Tarly betraying the Tyrells, but I think Mathis Rowan is much more likely to turn cloak first. Good thread, Jot(E)D Thanks! :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Why? Two Storm hostages are too much to handle :P? Seriously, why, though? Because he wants to "end the Usurper's line for good and all". At some point he's going to find out Tommen and Myrcella aren't Robert's and Edric is the only acknowledged son Robert had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Because he wants to "end the Usurper's line for good and all". At some point he's going to find out Tommen and Myrcella aren't Robert's and Edric is the only acknowledged son Robert had. Oh, gotcha! I thought you meant it would end bad for Jon. Yeah, poor Edric... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Oh, gotcha! I thought you meant it would end bad for Jon. Yeah, poor Edric... Well, while the idea of Ronald and Edric sneaking into Jon's bedroom at night and pulling pranks at him for keeping them hostages is well, lol, I doubt that's going to happen (seriously, GRRM. This needs to happen). And I kinda like that Edric might be used to get into the castle, but I don't see him very cooperative if they want to use them to enter the castle peacefully. They know they're trying to break into his father's household, he's not going to be much helpful there. As much, they will use him as a hostage to force them to open the gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I agree with the OP. I think Mathis Rowan, even if he's not the "friend in the Reach" the Peake from GC referred to, he's the most likely high-level bannerman from the Reach to defect to Jon Connington's side. I doubt any previous planning was in play though, considering it would be a big coincidence for Rowan to assume Mace Tyrell would leave the Siege of Storm's End in his command to rush back to King's Landing - and a even bigger coincidence if we can believe Rowan assumed Maegery would face trouble in the capital. If he did work with Jon Connington, the alliance would have been organised sometime prior to the Siege but after the GC's landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The chances that Mathis Rowan is going to defect to Aegon are pretty high. I'm not sure that he is in the plot already, but if Connington knows him well and/or is aware of his Targaryen allegiance, then it's very likely indeed that he'll be the first major Reach lord to join Aegon. Whether this is going to happen before or after the taking of Storm's End I don't know. But if Connington wants to Rowan on his side, it's very likely that he is going to contact him in secret before they are going to stage an attack on the castle. The battle for Storm's End can only truly begin/get bloody after Stannis' people open the gates. My guess is that it gets bloody after some members of the garrison (Queen's Men, most likely) refuse to yield and continue to fight the Golden Company despite the fact that they are already in the castle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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