Strongest Army of Westeros

[John Doe]

The Iron Islands are not nearly as big as England. They would be more comparable in size to Wales.

[The Fallen]

He's not asking anymore because he already sent many frantic letters asking for help and she hasn't budged. He's not asking anymore, because he knows that it's pointless.

"Frantic" letters?

If Robb was that desperate or frantic he could have spared Rickard Karstark, as Edmure suggests. Robb doesn't think twice about it.

This is what Robb says:

He appealed to his mother. "Will your sister never answer us? How many times must I write her? I will not believe that none of the birds have reached her."

We don't know how many times. It could be twice or 20. (There's nothing there about the letters being frantic.) And the assumption would be that he's asking her to send men to help him fight, which is what Cat assumes. Also, Cat's response clues us in that Robb isn't too familiar with Lysa.

"The birds have reached her. Though she may tell you they did not, if it ever comes to that. Expect no help from that quarter, Robb.

However, Robb clarifies what the letters were about:

"The knights of the Vale could make all the difference in this war," said Robb, "but if she will not fight, so be it. I've asked only that she open the Bloody Gate for us, and provide ships at Gulltown to take us north. The high road would be hard, but not so hard as fighting our way up the Neck. If I could land at White Harbor I could flank Moat Cailin and drive the ironmen from the north in half a year."

Robb acknowledges that the knights of the Vale would be welcomed. But he's availed himself of that expectation.

So what did we learn? We know that Robb has sent multiple letters to Lysa. We don't know the amount. But we know that at least one or more were asking for assistance in getting back to the North, not for men.

We can also see that Robb is frustrated, but not frantic nor desperate. And if he was in dire straits with regards to men, he could have spared Lord Karstark and kept the Karstark forces with his army.

We can also see that Robb had two plans ready for getting back to the North. One through the Vale and another through the Neck, which he ends up having to undertake. There are no rash decisions, no outbursts. He knows he's in a tough position, acknowledges that, and goes about trying to figure out a way to turn the tide.

[Lee-Sensei]

"Frantic" letters?

If Robb was that desperate or frantic he could have spared Rickard Karstark, as Edmure suggests. Robb doesn't think twice about it.

This is what Robb says:

He appealed to his mother. "Will your sister never answer us? How many times must I write her? I will not believe that none of the birds have reached her."

We don't know how many times. It could be twice or 20. (There's nothing there about the letters being frantic.) And the assumption would be that he's asking her to send men to help him fight, which is what Cat assumes. Also, Cat's response clues us in that Robb isn't too familiar with Lysa.

"The birds have reached her. Though she may tell you they did not, if it ever comes to that. Expect no help from that quarter, Robb.

However, Robb clarifies what the letters were about:

"The knights of the Vale could make all the difference in this war," said Robb, "but if she will not fight, so be it. I've asked only that she open the Bloody Gate for us, and provide ships at Gulltown to take us north. The high road would be hard, but not so hard as fighting our way up the Neck. If I could land at White Harbor I could flank Moat Cailin and drive the ironmen from the north in half a year."

Robb acknowledges that the knights of the Vale would be welcomed. But he's availed himself of that expectation.

So what did we learn? We know that Robb has sent multiple letters to Lysa. We don't know the amount. But we know that at least one or more were asking for assistance in getting back to the North, not for men.

We can also see that Robb is frustrated, but not frantic nor desperate. And if he was in dire straits with regards to men, he could have spared Lord Karstark and kept the Karstark forces with his army.

We can also see that Robb had two plans ready for getting back to the North. One through the Vale and another through the Neck, which he ends up having to undertake. There are no rash decisions, no outbursts. He knows he's in a tough position, acknowledges that, and goes about trying to figure out a way to turn the tide.

1) Frantic was the wrong word, but we do know that hes been sending letters since AGoT. In ACoK he said that he's sent letters and hasn't received answers, and as such he doubts he's going to get a response. In ASoS he mentions writing more letters in the vain hope that she'll help him fight the Lannisters, even though in ACoK he'd resigned himself to the fact that the Vale wasn't going to help him. At the very least, we can assume that he sent a lot of letters. Definitely more than two.

2) In ASoS Robb has resigned himself to the fact that she won't send Valemen to fight. That doesn't mean that he hasn't asked her to send men.

One of the first questions he asked Cat was if the Knights of the Vale would join them.

In ACoK he says this, "We've tossed some birds to the wind, that's all. If your sister Lysa was coming, we'd have heard by now. How many birds have we sent, four." So he has been asking for her to send men.

3) No, but he has lost everything else, Catelyn thought, but it would not do to say it aloud. The northmen did not lack for courage, but they were far from home, with little enough to sustain them but for their faith in their young king. That faith must be protected, at all costs. I must be stronger, she told herself. I must be strong for Robb. If I despair, my grief will consume me. Everything would turn on this marriage. If Edmure and Roslin were happy in one another, if the Late Lord Frey could be appeased and his power once more wedded to Robb’s . . . Even then, what chance will we have, caught between Lannister and Greyjoy? It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.

4) He was in dire straits. That's why he was willing to grovel to Walder Frey and accept his insults. He was in a desperate position.

[The Fallen]

1) Frantic was the wrong word, but we do know that hes been sending letters since AGoT. In ACoK he said that he's sent letters and hasn't received answers, and as such he doubts he's going to get a response. In ASoS he mentions writing more letters in the vain hope that she'll help him fight the Lannisters, even though in ACoK he'd resigned himself to the fact that the Vale wasn't going to help him. At the very least, we can assume that he sent a lot of letters. Definitely more than two.

2) In ASoS Robb has resigned himself to the fact that she won't send Valemen to fight. That doesn't mean that he hasn't asked her to send men.

One of the first questions he asked Cat was if the Knights of the Vale would join them.

In ACoK he says this, "We've tossed some birds to the wind, that's all. If your sister Lysa was coming, we'd have heard by now. How many birds have we sent, four." So he has been asking for her to send men.

3) No, but he has lost everything else, Catelyn thought, but it would not do to say it aloud. The northmen did not lack for courage, but they were far from home, with little enough to sustain them but for their faith in their young king. That faith must be protected, at all costs. I must be stronger, she told herself. I must be strong for Robb. If I despair, my grief will consume me. Everything would turn on this marriage. If Edmure and Roslin were happy in one another, if the Late Lord Frey could be appeased and his power once more wedded to Robbs . . . Even then, what chance will we have, caught between Lannister and Greyjoy? It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.

4) He was in dire straits. That's why he was willing to grovel to Walder Frey and accept his insults. He was in a desperate position.

Last post for the night, it's really late.

Yes, he asked for men early on.

He grovelled to Walder Frey for his bridge. The Frey forces would've been nice, but they're only 4,000 men. That wasn't going to make or break Robb's kingdom. He also felt genuinely bad about breaking his promise to Lord Frey.

He was in a tough position, no doubt about it, and things didn't look well for the Riverlands portion of his kingdom, but there was no desperation. Neither did the Blackfish seem desperate. As your quote states, Robb spent all his time looking at maps and trying to find ways to make his situation better. There were no rash decisions. He was focused on finding a way to victory.

I won't argue the point any further though. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

With regards to strongest army, yes the Reach has the numbers so they look strongest on paper. Should we hand them the trophy? Why even play the game?

It's not that simple though. Robb didn't have the numbers and had success.

Let's take the Westerlands. I can see a scenario where they could beat the Reach. They could split their armies. Maybe send Jaime against Tarly and a portion of the Reach's army while Tywin ties up the rest of the Tyrell host. If Mace himself is leading that second host I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin can outmaneuver him and make the Tyrell host break.

And Tarly isn't necessarily the second coming of Aegon I.

Now, that was simple and basic. Campaigns are a lot more complicated. I just don't feel that because of the high numbers of the Reach army it automatically makes them the strongest army.

I don't know that there is such a thing as strongest. Many factors can bring about victory or defeat on a battlefield.

[Lee-Sensei]

Last post for the night, it's really late.

Yes, he asked for men early on.

He grovelled to Walder Frey for his bridge. The Frey forces would've been nice, but they're only 4,000 men. That wasn't going to make or break Robb's kingdom. He also felt genuinely bad about breaking his promise to Lord Frey.

He was in a tough position, no doubt about it, and things didn't look well for the Riverlands portion of his kingdom, but there was no desperation. Neither did the Blackfish seem desperate. As your quote states, Robb spent all his time looking at maps and trying to find ways to make his situation better. There were no rash decisions. He was focused on finding a way to victory.

I won't argue the point any further though. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

1) Exactly. The Frey's only have about 5000 men. He was begging them for his men. He said so himself. It was only an slim chance, but he was going for it.

2) Desperate means that he was in a hopeless situation. A situation with little chance of success. That describes Robb's position to a T. Anyone would be feel that way in his situation.

[Game of Thrones Reference]

1) Exactly. The Frey's only have about 5000 men. He was begging them for his men. He said so himself. It was only an slim chance, but he was going for it.

2) Desperate means that he was in a hopeless situation. A situation with little chance of success. That describes Robb's position to a T. Anyone would be feel that way in his situation.

Sorry to weigh in here, but I think what the previous poster was saying was that Robb was trying to rekindle his relationship with Walder Frey in order to use his bridge to get back to the North so he could retake it from the ironborn and regather his strength. Of course, the extra Frey support would be appreciated, but it was really the bridge he needed, seeing as the Vale harbor no longer appeared to be an option for transport.

[John Doe]

How could Robb think that the Freys would side with him after he decided to abandon the Riverlands?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Sorry to weigh in here, but I think what the previous poster was saying was that Robb was trying to rekindle his relationship with Walder Frey in order to use his bridge to get back to the North so he could retake it from the ironborn and regather his strength. Of course, the extra Frey support would be appreciated, but it was really the bridge he needed, seeing as the Vale harbor no longer appeared to be an option for transport.

No. He is planning on using Frey men.

Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to pide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart. If the Greyjoys have eyes south of the Neck, they will see my whole strength rushing headlong at Moat Cailin.

[Game of Thrones Reference]

No. He is planning on using Frey men.

I never said he wasn't, only that the bridge was his primary concern. And the quote you used only indicates how he was planning on using the Freys once he got them, not that he absolutely needed them.

[Leonardo]

ITT: Vast underestimation of the river lands, which next to the reach is the most populous in the realm and definitely can raise more levies than the west; only the reach has more manpower. The problem has always resided in uniting all of them.

They definitely have at least 55k, and likely more.

[Game Of Thrones]

ITT: Vast underestimation of the river lands, which next to the reach is the most populous in the realm and definitely can raise more levies than the west; only the reach has more manpower. The problem has always resided in uniting all of them.

They definitely have at least 55k, and likely more.

Except that unifying the River lords is like herding cats.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I never said he wasn't, only that the bridge was his primary concern. And the quote you used only indicates how he was planning on using the Freys once he got them, not that he absolutely needed them.

Considering that the Tyrells have now joined forces with the Lannisters then I would assume the Freys are needed in the Riverlands.

Do you think Robb would truly bring them if they were not needed?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

No really. Fighting people who are not allowed to kill you is no imprissive feat at all.

Trawlin' :smug:

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Do you talk of the TV version?

Which one? Deepwood Motte or the Shield Islands?

Both Deepwood and Shield Islands.

I'm speaking of the book version, but one may be bleeding into the other.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's really not that hard to kill a bunch of untrained barbarians without armor, and wielding sticks and slings, when your crew has actual weapons, armor, and training. I probably need to re-read the section (what chapter was it, again?), but I don't think it's too out there. At least not relative to some other feats in these books.

Nah, that's not an accurate description of the clansmen at all. The fact is, Asha focuses on three out of ~200 Ironborn. One of them is considered top three of all the Ironborn fighters and may very well be number one. The second has a reputation as outstanding as well, and Asha herself has bodyguards sacrificing their lives for her left and right to survive and fight another guy. That seriously skews perception.

Ah, alright then. Would the Ironborn, on average, be inferior on a man to man basis, then? And I recall Renly stating he had 120,000 men to Stannis (100,000 foot, 20,000 horse), and that was just the Stormlands + the Reach. This, along with the fact that Stannis, who is said to have most of the Stormlords + at least one major Reach house following him, got only 16,000 extra men to supplement his 3,000 Crownlanders and 2,000 mercs, makes me think it's a little implausible that the Reach wouldn't be able to field 100,000++ actual troops (not ship crews). Then again, he said to Catelyn that he only had 80,000 in all, twice what he speculated Robb to have after he recruited the Freys and Tullys (though Cat notes he wasn't considering casualties they took). So... meh.

Depends on the environment. On ships the Ironborn would be superior. In pitched battle? The other way round. In a closed room one on one? Probably about equal.

Renly stated that he had 100,000 men. That does include the Stormlords, but neither Redwyne nor Hightower.

Which maps? The size comparisons I've seen (admittedly, probably fan-made ones) all depict the islands as much smaller than England, to say nothing of the whole of Britain.

If you put a ruler to the maps in the books and try to figure it out with the Wall as a measuring stick. I didn't do a by pixel attempt though, that would give a way better estimation. It's just a very rough comparison.

Both Deepwood and Shield Islands.

I'm speaking of the book version, but one may be bleeding into the other.

Meh, as I said above, Deepwood is a very skewed perception. The Ironborn did barely any damage in total, maybe 90% of them were slaughtered without a chance. It's just that Asha focuses on the outstanding one percent.

The Shield Islands is rather expected. Unarmored and lightly armed sailors against a guy in full plate? It's no coincidence that knights were considered worth 80 of those. Their only chance would be swarming Victarion from all sides with ten or twenty men, loosing five to his axe and another three with broken bones from his shield, while the remaining ones would wrestle him down and flick open his visor to stab him in the face or throw him overboard.

But since Vic isn't alone, they can only get at him from the front, two guys at the worst, but just one in most cases. Running straight into axe and shield.

[Capt Captain]

The Reach is Like Chinese Army.

The Westerlands are like US Army.

The North is like Western European Armies.

The Riverlands are like Indian Army.

The Vale is like Russian Army.

The Dorne is like Israeli Army.

The Stormlands are like Turkish and Pakistani armies.

The Iron Islands are like Japanese Army.

No, just no. The Reach has good numbers sure, but they're also well trained and have the most knights compared t any other kingdom.

The Westerlands could be the US, sure.

The Western European Armies had great navies, knights and archers, quite the opposite of the North.

The Riverlands, I'd go for Prussia. Surrounded by possible allies or enemies, powerful if they can get their men together.

The Vale is not like the Russians, that goes to the North. I don't know who the Vale could be though.

The Dornish, I don't know, they aren't very professional, but they are best suited for their terrain. Sort of like the Parthians.

The Stormlands... I don't know, you could say that the Stormlands specialize in heavy cavalry (all 20k horse that Renly took to fight against Stannis were from the Stormlands) so the Ottoman mamluks could suit them. I don't know where you got the Pakistani from though.

The Iron Islands have the best navy, and are based on the Vikings. If they weren't so pessimistic about trade they could have very well been similar to England. But y'know, "We do not sow" isn't something England preaches.

[Lord Reaver]

Meh, as I said above, Deepwood is a very skewed perception. The Ironborn did barely any damage in total, maybe 90% of them were slaughtered without a chance. It's just that Asha focuses on the outstanding one percent..

Hahaha, no. The mountain clansmen are by their description pretty close to their cousins in the vale, being barely armed with iron, having no armor. It is no surprise then that the ironborn, clad in mail, make short work of them on a one-to-one basis.

The reason it's called barely a battle ( by Stannis' knights, who didn't get there until it was virtually over) is because it wasn't. The IB were outnumbered roughly 1:50. Unless they were literally invincible, there's no way you win with those odds.

Conclusion: The mountain clansmen are shittily armed, and used by Stannis in about the same way Tywin uses Tyrion's men, as expendable vanguard.

As for the estimates in the OP, the numbers for the IB are vastly underestimated. 20k is barely enough to man the Iron Fleet, let alone the additional 500-1000 ships.

[GarlanTyrel]

Does anyone know how to post a Picture? Thanks

[The Fallen]

No. He is planning on using Frey men.

The bridge was most important. Robb was going north with or without the Freys. The reason the bridge was so important was because of the conditions in the Riverlands, basically there was no place for Robb's army to cross safely and quickly.

If the bridge also comes with 2,000 men, which is what Roose took with him up north, then why not use them?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The bridge was most important. Robb was going north with or without the Freys. The reason the bridge was so important was because of the conditions in the Riverlands, basically there was no place for Robb's army to cross safely and quickly.

If the bridge also comes with 2,000 men, which is what Roose took with him up north, then why not use them?

Because there is 60k+ soldiers sitting around Kings Landing with nothing to do. The Riverlands was in serious trouble when it was just the Lannisters add the Reach soldiers to the equation and the Riverlands is doomed.