The Seven are the only "fake" gods

[WarLord]

Your Forgot Mother Rhoynar.

:(

[Ivashanko]

If Varys was castrated as a sacrifice for R'hllor and therefore hates magic, why would he be a part of a plan involving the return of dragons to Westeros? Also, how did he survive (physical castration requires precision and care post-castration. If he was cut for a sacrifice he would not have survived)?

I don't think that really follows. Varys might believe and dislike sorcery at the same time, after all, and he might feel he needs to use fire to fight fire. I just posted another theory on this board that Varys is trying to bring AA to Westeros in the form of Aegon, which ties in nicely to the 'Red God is real' scene.

And I have known people to survive much worse wounds than castration in war and lived without getting proper medical treatment. Hell, I've heard of children who were castrated and left to die and survived.

I wish people would admit their biases. That they would love it if the greatest wordsmith of our time was heading towards a finale in which an entire world would see what we already know about the Seven: that none of them are real. And that that would extend to all the gods. That way maybe the people of earthos might learn a lesson, and through them, the people of Earth.

Sad news for you. That isn't going to happen. This is high fantasy and it's going to be exploited as such. tWoW will rip the world apart and there won't be any doubt about gods existing.

Does anyone really believe Martin is the greater wordsmith of our time?

[JaimetheConciliator]

Does anyone really believe Martin is the greater wordsmith of our time?

Most likely not. But still. The key word is *our time*, and nobody actually cares about the people who win the big awards, no more than they care about who's coming on classical radio next with a woodwind tour de force.

[ChillyPolly]

Except you said they would intervene.

Hmmm. Yes. But that is relevant only because you said that GRRM said that they would not intervene (in any sense). I doubt he said that. That's not quite what I recall him saying, and I doubt you can find a direct quote that says such a thing. But you are welcome to prove me wrong.

[illrede]

I have one good, more or less clear, example of devout faith in the Seven getting a result.

Catelyn praying at the peasant's sept during the siege of Storms End, when the faces of the Seven start throwing out examples of their archetypes. She gets Lysa and Cersei superimposed on the Stranger, and shakes it off.

As for religion in aSoiaF, we now know that the Old Gods are millennia of people warging trees, to a Result. For all we know Rhlorism is the same thing regards fire. And what if all prophecies are "just" clairvoyance with good publicity?

[Janicia]

I have one good, more or less clear, example of devout faith in the Seven getting a result.

Catelyn praying at the peasant's sept during the siege of Storms End, when the faces of the Seven start throwing out examples of their archetypes. She gets Lysa and Cersei superimposed on the Stranger, and shakes it off.

As for religion in aSoiaF, we now know that the Old Gods are millennia of people warging trees, to a Result. For all we know Rhlorism is the same thing regards fire. And what if all prophecies are "just" clairvoyance with good publicity?

Melissandre doesn't seem to think that Rhlorism works that way, and as a powerful practitioner of it, you'd think she would know. I don't think we really know how much Bloodraven is using the weirnet vs. the weirnet or something else using him.

[blerg]

There seems to be a game of the GOD'S similar to the game of thrones being played by the lords of Westeros. So perhaps the 7 is just biding it's time, much like Doran is biding his time in the game of thrones.

[Mladen]

Hmmm. Yes. But that is relevant only because you said that GRRM said that they would not intervene (in any sense). I doubt he said that. That's not quite what I recall him saying, and I doubt you can find a direct quote that says such a thing. But you are welcome to prove me wrong.

Actually, you are the wrong here. GRRM did say we won't see any deity on screen or that they will influence the story any more than they already did which is to say none.

Here is a quote:

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

GRRM: Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

[ChillyPolly]

Actually, you are the wrong here. GRRM did say we won't see any deity on screen or that they will influence the story any more than they already did which is to say none.

Here is a quote:

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

GRRM: Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

We will never see eye to eye on this. GRRM says he intends to allow divine intervention to remain ambiguous, to the reader has to puzzle it out ... and you interpret it as that the gods won't intervene or have any influence at all. Essential to you interpretation is your conclusion that the gods have had zero influence on the story so far (which GRRM certainly did not say). I'm sure you will still feel that way by the end of the series, because I'm sure the Seven are not going to appear in person at the victory celebration the heros hold in the final chapter.

The Seven have already intervened, saving Davos, saving the Elder Brother, and sending various persons dreams and visions. Other gods, such as the Red God, also seem to be affecting the story. All of this is, of course, ambiguous and deniable by those that wish to deny it. No doubt this sort of thing will continue to occur; but the gods are not "likely to be showing up in Westeros, ANY MORE THAN THEY ALREADY DO."

How did "readers are certain free to wonder" get translated into "readers are NOT free to wonder because GRRM says otherwise"?

[Lord Reaver]

The religions are all equally true. Which is to say, not at all.

Magic exists, and this is misinterpreted as coming from the gods, in some cases.

[blerg]

R

[BitsOfBrains]

Yeah it does seem that the followers of the seven have zero "juice" compared to the other religions.

Pretty much the only real super powers we have seen bestowed upon the followers of the seven are the powers to con gullible people into giving them money and make them do stuff.

I take that back. The Smith gave Septon Meribald the super power of tough feet.

Weigh that against shadow babies or controlling animals.

[Mladen]

We will never see eye to eye on this. GRRM says he intends to allow divine intervention to remain ambiguous, to the reader has to puzzle it out ... and you interpret it as that the gods won't intervene or have any influence at all. Essential to you interpretation is your conclusion that the gods have had zero influence on the story so far (which GRRM certainly did not say). I'm sure you will still feel that way by the end of the series, because I'm sure the Seven are not going to appear in person at the victory celebration the heros hold in the final chapter.

The Seven have already intervened, saving Davos, saving the Elder Brother, and sending various persons dreams and visions. Other gods, such as the Red God, also seem to be affecting the story. All of this is, of course, ambiguous and deniable by those that wish to deny it. No doubt this sort of thing will continue to occur; but the gods are not "likely to be showing up in Westeros, ANY MORE THAN THEY ALREADY DO."

How did "readers are certain free to wonder" get translated into "readers are NOT free to wonder because GRRM says otherwise"?

Although GRRM has been very specific about this, I have no intention going into debate whether deities indeed exist or not, which is basically debate you call upon. My opinion is that the level of existence between R'hllor and example Seven is the same and that is quite the obsolete talking about real and false Gods outside the preaches of certain religious. As to what Martin said, he basically left us open window of discussing the connections between magic and religious views. But he quite clearly said that the question of existence of various deities is the same we have in real world where there is no answer to what God is the real one.

[hiemal]

I got the impression that miraculous healing was the supernatural gift of the Seven, although whether that makes them "real" or not is another question. If I remember correctly one of the brothers on the Quiet isle had that gift.

[Primalsplit]

The one true god is the one between a woman's legs.

[Chalais]

In the Faith of the Seven, the Seven are really just One God who is personified into seven parts. Like how light shined through a prism splits into different colors but comes from a single source. It's usually the smallfolk who see the Seven as separate deities. And in one of Cat's POVs we saw how the Seven are worshiped, they aren't seen as 'Gods' so much as psychological representations of different aspects of 'God', they are focuses of worship, not it's true object.

This is why the uneducated masses tend to see them as separate deities, it's a difficult concept to convey, this is also why the worship of the Fire God is becoming more popular. It's simply easier to understand that there are two gods, but only One is worthy of worship and is good. The other guy is evil and must be opposed to the point that its name isn't even spoken.

[Murat]

From the 5 religions that have ever been in westeros (The 7, old gods,drowned god,r'hlorr,and the valyrian faith) we have seen only 4 out of 5 show any power whatsoever

old gods have green dreams and warging

drowned god has people coming back from the dead (aeron damphair for example)

the valyrian faith being the only faith that allows control over dragons ( I know that the fot7 targs had dragons aswell but they were muuuuuuuch weaker than the original 3)

and ofcourse r'hlorr the biggest religion in the world, smallest in westeros, but obviously, the most powerfull. it can ressurect people, make shadow babies reveal the future and much much more

in truth, the only religion we haven't seen showing "godly" powers is ironiclly the biggest one in westeros, apart from its holy orders, the fot7 is probably "fake" as in non existent in planetos we haven't seen any of the 7 helping characters (catelyn prayed to the mother but lost all her children), (jamie prayed to the warrior but lost the battle against robb and eventually, his arm) (davos prayed to the smith but lost his navy)

really, any character that prays to seven for anything, will most likely lose it .

Hi,

I'am sorry but I have to disagree on this point.

What is happening has nothing to do with the drowned good.

The Ironborn are so fu*ked up that they actually drown their own people. And what happens afterwards is just a very superstitious misinterpretation of mouth to mouth and cardiac massage but such an expirience - being killed in such a horrible way (drowned!) changes them a lot and not in a good way! thats the reason why they are so fu*ked up - and so it goes on the circle of superstition and fu*ked up-ness!

Wow, I was wondering today how long passed since we discussed some version of "these gods are true and these are false". As usual, my opinion regarding this is very simple. That kind of belief is plainly wrong, and has been refuted by GRRM himself.

Now, in what way are Seven false? Because they have no magic attached to them? Well, strange truth is that neither does the Drowned God or R'hllor. As far as I know, Drowned God or R'hllor have never actually did something. They have never proven their existence by actually doing something magical or not. The Old Gods are just plain humans, and basically represent cultural view on something rather simple thing - there are those humans with supernatural powers. Are as the concept, Old Gods more real than Faith? Absolutely not. You may pray, as GRRM said, but no Godly help will come. The prayers directed at different deities are never answered by specific action of the said deity. So, the concept of "these deities are real just because there are magic attached to their name" is basically flawed since there is no proof that magic originates from special deities. As for that matter, as GRRM said, we will never find that solution.

Basically, what GRRM created, and what many people confuse, are religions, not deities. We see numerous religions in conflict here, never the Gods, in the version we think of them. Furthermore, each God is as real as those that believe in it think it is. So, Seven in no way are less real, because there are millions believing in them. And since no God will interfere any more than they already had (basically: no interference), the logic dictates that the talk about whether one deity is less real or false quite obsolete.

I would love to agree with you there but for the time beeing I simply can not - since Ser Beric Dondarrion came back to life several times and a sertain Lady with a heard of stone still runs around I vote for magic in the name of this god.

But! I also belive we will get an explanation for it in the next book when Dany is in the land where Dragons most likely originated - hey I mean someone musst show The red priest what she sees in her fires .

And also got an explanation for the Direwolf that was south of the wall and the Crow of the LC voting for Jon as the new LC - why not for what is in the fires?

But till then I musst say that the Fire god has at the moment at least the only claim to be "a god" - uh yea and of course the other "god" the Cold who can raise also dead people - in a slightly diffrent condition but still.

[Mladen]

I would love to agree with you there but for the time beeing I simply can not - since Ser Beric Dondarrion came back to life several times and a sertain Lady with a heard of stone still runs around I vote for magic in the name of this god.

But! I also belive we will get an explanation for it in the next book when Dany is in the land where Dragons most likely originated - hey I mean someone musst show The red priest what she sees in her fires .

And also got an explanation for the Direwolf that was south of the wall and the Crow of the LC voting for Jon as the new LC - why not for what is in the fires?

But till then I musst say that the Fire god has at the moment at least the only claim to be "a god" - uh yea and of course the other "god" the Cold who can raise also dead people - in a slightly diffrent condition but still.

First, I am very much aware of Beric's and Catelyn's resurrection, but I have no recollection that R'hllor was resurrecting them. Thoros resurrected Beric and Beric resurrected Catelyn. There is no doubt that magic has happened, but there is absolutely no proof that R'hllor had something to do with it. I am more inclined to believe that in such medieval setting people explain things they don't understand with religion. So, your opinion is that magic comes from Gods, and that is simply something that hasn't been proven. Basically, R'hllor did nothing in the books. The individuals who call themselves priest, and one who most certainly isn't, did some wonders. People, not Gods.

Furthermore, Dany is not in either Asshai or Valyria, she is with Dothraki at the moment. As for direwolf we have seen the deal with it, the Old Gods are basically just the greenseers and they actually do not answer prayers.

[Murat]

First, I am very much aware of Beric's and Catelyn's resurrection, but I have no recollection that R'hllor was resurrecting them. Thoros resurrected Beric and Beric resurrected Catelyn. There is no doubt that magic has happened, but there is absolutely no proof that R'hllor had something to do with it. I am more inclined to believe that in such medieval setting people explain things they don't understand with religion. So, your opinion is that magic comes from Gods, and that is simply something that hasn't been proven. Basically, R'hllor did nothing in the books. The individuals who call themselves priest, and one who most certainly isn't, did some wonders. People, not Gods.

Furthermore, Dany is not in either Asshai or Valyria, she is with Dothraki at the moment. As for direwolf we have seen the deal with it, the Old Gods are basically just the greenseers and they actually do not answer prayers.

Also folgendes:

First, I am very much aware of Beric's and Catelyn's resurrection, but I have no recollection that R'hllor was resurrecting them. Thoros resurrected Beric and Beric resurrected Catelyn.

There is no doubt that magic has happened, but there is absolutely no proof that R'hllor had something to do with it.

And they did this by praying to R'hllor not because some westerosi huged another westerosi. It happened because this people prayed to R'hllor.

And there is no proof for (almost) anything in this books - they are written that way - even the narrator is unreliable - so this is no reason to belive - aka just because there is no proof doesnt mean that it is not true.

I am more inclined to believe that in such medieval setting people explain things they don't understand with religion.

Yes exactly! that is in my opinion exactly what is happening - first I also "belived" in the old goods but that was till we learned more about "them" (the greenseers)

So, your opinion is that magic comes from Gods, and that is simply something that hasn't been proven.

Not at all - I'am saying the exact opposite - I dont belive in any gods (in rl or in the books).

The individuals who call themselves priest, and one who most certainly isn't, did some wonders. People, not Gods

Thats something I'have to disagree simply because I dont belive in wonders (yes I know I belive in greenseers and magic but no wonders done by priests!)

Especialy since "R'hllor" (who or whatever is behind) has shown some powers (and again: I think it is something like we see in the old goods and the greenseers, who can use the trees as a "time and space machine" and so it appears like magic and gods for the smalfolk)

Furthermore, Dany is not in either Asshai or Valyria, she is with Dothraki at the moment.

I know thats why I said: we will get an explanation for it in the next book when Dany is in the land where Dragons most likely originated

She can not be there yet since we still have not the next book ...

the Old Gods are basically just the greenseers and they actually do not answer prayers.

In fact they do! But not in a way we imagine in the west from what the church and movies has shown us.

Remember the wind in the trees? thats when the gods are answering - they seem also to be able to communicate with wargens when they are skinchanged - and jon could even see Brans face int he weirwoodtree that Bran was in when he (Jon) was in Ghost.

And again - when I say the gods do answer the prayers - I mean that the "gods" (aka greenseers) aka the gods as someone in westeros would experience and explain what we as readers have read and learned from the books.

And again - the same will - IMHO - happen in the next book when Dany is in the land of the Shadows (after she left the Dothraki) and we will learn something about the "god R'hllor" like we did learn about the old gods.

[Mladen]

And they did this by praying to R'hllor not because some westerosi huged another westerosi. It happened because this people prayed to R'hllor.

And there is no proof for (almost) anything in this books - they are written that way - even the narrator is unreliable - so this is no reason to belive - aka just because there is no proof doesnt mean that it is not true.

The fact they pray to something doesn't mean that R'hllor came down and resurrected someone. We have seen that in the case of Thoros, he couldn't have done that, but at some point he was able to. R'hllor exists for all eternity as far as teachings say, and as Thoros said he was never able to do it, until recently. This speaks about certain independence of his powers and R'hllor. Melisandre as a shadowbinder has certain powers, and not all of it is connected with R'hllor. The resurrections thus didn't happened because of R'hllor or because they preyed to him. They did because certain individual are capable of doing so. Yes, the lack of proof is not a proof. But, the fact is that I am not speaking about lack of truth. I am speaking of people being able to do something completely independently of the deities they believe in, as both Melisandre and Thoros shows.

Thats something I'have to disagree simply because I dont belive in wonders (yes I know I belive in greenseers and magic but no wonders done by priests!)

Especialy since "R'hllor" (who or whatever is behind) has shown some powers (and again: I think it is something like we see in the old goods and the greenseers, who can use the trees as a "time and space machine" and so it appears like magic and gods for the smalfolk)

In fact they do! But not in a way we imagine in the west from what the church and movies has shown us.

Remember the wind in the trees? thats when the gods are answering - they seem also to be able to communicate with wargens when they are skinchanged - and jon could even see Brans face int he weirwoodtree that Bran was in when he (Jon) was in Ghost.

And again - when I say the gods do answer the prayers - I mean that the "gods" (aka greenseers) aka the gods as someone in westeros would experience and explain what we as readers have read and learned from the books.

I am sorry, but when did R'hllor showed any power? What he, and I emphasize it again, what has he done in the series? Not Melisandre, Benerro, Thoros or Moqorro? But R'hllor himself thus proving its existence.

Furthermore, we actually have been proven that Old Gods don't exist. What people like Ned believed are the Old Gods are nothing but the individuals with special powers. Think of this, will Old Gods ever answer to anyone who is asking for IDK, like Ned so Jon and Robb love each other as brothers? Absolutely not. Thus the concept of Old Gods is actually crushed with discovery of what is behind those faces. Basically, even though we indeed found out about Old Gods, the religion of Old Gods became essentially disproved, for greenseers don't answer to people's answers in terms of affecting their lives as they want to.