Name a bad Summer Islander

[kimim]

Again, the internet amazes me. Thank you, ChillyPolly. I wanted a thread about race in fantasy, and you've given us a diatribe about child prostitution. You keep banging on about it, like it's the only aspect of Summer Island culture that we've been exposed to that matters. Since, in the world of Ice and Fire, it is a global pandemic, and the Summer Islanders seem to generally treat their child prostitutes better than other cultures do, I don't see why you hate them so bad. Surely well-treated, loved, and respected child prostitutes are a step up from beaten, murdered and shunned child prostitutes? I don't know what kind of world you think ASOIAF is, but for me, the Summer Islanders treat prostitution in a more enlightened way than most western countries do now. I.e. It happens, it's always going to happen, let's give sex workers some dignity and respect. Or are you against that?

If you are, are you being as foolish as Stannis in thinking that closing down all the brothels will improve the morality of KL? Why the focus on prostitution? Jesus, Polly, I don't like it, either, but it seems to me that in a barbaric society the SIs have done a lot for giving sex workers dignity. As long as society's sexual mores have taboos, dalliances, affairs and the like, there will always be sex workers filling the gaps. Seems to me that SI sex workers fill those gaps, but don't let that work define themselves as a person, and rather have opportunities to move on, unlike poor Bella. I think the SI's are more sex-positive than Westerosi.

We don't know very much about Summer Islanders, and the ones we do meet are associated with sex. Chataya and Alayaya are, and so is the crew of the Cinnamon Wind. I mean, we do find out more about them: They're excellent shipwrights and sailors. Women are treated with respect and gender roles haven't diverged too far. Kojja Mo, the captain's daughter, is an archer, and women are part of the crew.

After that, though, it's sex. They have sex after funerals. The captain's favorite word in Common Tongue is "fuck." Any god who would demand chastity is a "demon of the darkness." Given a choice between Gilly's need and Sam's oath, they'll side with need, though threatening to toss Sam overboard if he doesn't fuck Gilly seems extreme. otoh, Sam obviously wants Gilly, too.

So Summer Islanders are black, and they're great sailors, and have wars which create exiles, they like feathers, and they like sex. How we got from that to child prostitution and human sacrifice, idk.

Kimim, relax. Do not panic.

I will cease panicking, and responding too, lol. I fear that on this subject, we are communicating between two different universes.

[ChillyPolly]

On the "I don't care" part. You should really care, because the theme emerged in a comparative analysis of the SUmmer Islands and the rest of the world in which the story takes place.

I did not say I did not care about the comparative analysis.

The only point of comparison we have is that the Summer Islanders are gung-ho about child prostitition, and contemptuous of those who are prudish about such things. This is practically all we know about their culture. When people here praise the Summer Islanders, that is all they can possibly be praising, because it is just about the only thing we know.

On the "you should educate yourself" part, I find the tone offensive in general, and I disagree in the merit of the sentence. You could educate yourself on the child brides difficulties and the lives they live.

I never said anything in favor of early age at marriage. I merely said that marriage was better than prostitution. A 12-year old bride is more fortunate than a 12-year old prostitute; a 15 year old bride is more fortunate than a 15 year old prostitute; a 20 year old bride is more fortunate than a 20-year old prostitute; and a 40-year old bride is more fortunate than a 40-year old prostitute.

Sorry, but you are out of line. I have given you no excuse for your false accusations that I condone early marriage or don't understand the perils of early marriage. I merely said that marriage was better than prostitution, and early prostitution a worse abuse than early marriage.

On the "trained warriors, sorn to protect the weak" part. Well.The "trained warrior sworn to protect the weak" are most of the rapers, and the killers like someone else already said.

Is that your view of reality? Or merely of Westeros? You may be right about Westeros. But in the real world, good men must fight or evil runs amok, and the wolf at the door devours your wife and children.

The very reason a pimp can exploit a pronstitute is because there is a client paying.

Absolutely. Johns suck. But the only reason people are so gung ho about the Summer Islands is because they think its a paradise for Johns.

On the other hand, we do know that westerosi do or at the very least did practice ritual human sacrifice.

The only reason I mention human sacrifice is because people are throwing cultural relativism in my face ... as though I HAVE to approve of the pimping of little girls because its THEIR CULTURE!!

Are you suggesting that the Westerosi society is sexually open? Maybe too open?

In many ways, yes.

We are looking at a society that considers just to force a widow that have sex with someone to walk naked in front of a city

There you go. Too much sexual openness, right there. Not an appropriate punishment at all. And not one that would have been tolerated in the Church in the actual middle ages.

Same goes for the Westerosi bedding ceremony. Not something that would have been tolerated in the Middle Ages or any sane culture.

You can consider that this society is sexually free.

I don't give a damn about sexual freedom, or believe in it. No society in the world lets you have any person you want ... nor should it.

I do care about some things. I believe that no woman should be forced to marry against her will. Same for men, of course. In Westeros the Faith of the Seven requires men and women to publicly say vows to be considered married in the Faith. Like the historical Christian church, the Faith of the Seven seems to celebrate and defend a woman's right (and a man's right) to remain a virgin - for as long as they choose or forever if they choose. This gave women (and even men) power they never had before, led to a relatively-late age of first marriage for women (early 20s, on average), and placed limits on ability of families to indiscriminately sell daughters.

No, the requirement of public vows is not a sufficient safeguard in all cases, but no system in the world is an absolute guarantee against corruption and the abuse of power. No, the ideal was not always honored. But at least the ideal existed. Better that than a society that publicly condones pimping.

[edd tollett:(]

WOW, what did I walk in on haha

[edd tollett:(]

AFFC ends on a cliffhanger, wherein Sam ignores Aemon's warning not to talk to the sphynx, and allows himself to be pumped for information by the Sphynx and Marwyn. Aemon wanted Sam to talk to the Maesters. Marwyn, however, is eager to prevent this. Marwyn then asks Sarella to "take care" of Sam, and Sarella delegates this task to Fake Pate, an even more deadly assassin. It is obvious that Marwyn (and presumably Sarella as well) know who Fake Pate really is, because no-one would allow Real Pate to listen in on super-secret conversations. Together they lure Sam to the Tower of Ravens, an abandoned edifice overlooking a river from which his body can be readily disposed. No other novices have quarters here, except Fake Pate.

Escorting novices to their quarters is not a task one normally assigns to super-assassins who cost so much even Kings balk at hiring them.

I'm not touching the other stuff but IIRC aemon never told sam specifically not to talk to sarella just that the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler. It's in no way obvious weather or not marwyn knows who fPate is. Why would you assume marwyn would Even want to work with the FM? does marwyn have a connection with them? I admit the location and circumstance Are suspect but I think we're going to need a POV at the Citadel for awhile besides I just don't see sam dying yet

[Falcon2908]

He is not from Summer Islands, is he? Victarion ( or Tyrion ) was describing Moqorro as having a skin much darker than a skin of Summer Islanders, that implies he is not from there.

Maybe he's from Sothoryos

[Lord Freypie]

Personnally I'm a bit more shocked by the racism of counting characters like Alleras (dornian culture) and Moqorro (essosi culture) as Summer Islanders, just because one has one parent from there, and the other has a dark skin, than by anything a fictionnal culture may do in a fantasy world.

Not to mention people calling summer islanders "jamaicans" when their only common point is being black, and Jamaica's main actual religions (protestantism, catholicism and jeovah witnesses) aren't at all favoring sexually activity out of marriage (which is nearly the only point we know about Summer Islands one).

And strangely when there are/were RW cultures far more comparable with Summer Island one in their openness about sex they considered sacred (before being converted to monotheism), and who also happen to be islanders and traditionnally used feathers in their clothing, many polynesians cultures, they are not even mentionned in this thread, probably because their skin is not judged the right color.

ps : and by the way even Chataya and Allalaya, who have lived in Westeros for years, can't be seen as representatives of pure SI culture. We have no idea how Summer Islanders from Summer Islands would see prostitution as it's practiced in Westeros (not in a temple, with no intent by the client to honor their gods, very little respect for the "priestess" etc...).

[Facebookless Man]

This is a story about what we call the medieval times in which your future is not decided by your intelligence or strength or a specific skillset but birth.

as opposed to what other time in history?

[Mikkel]

as opposed to what other time in history?

Today, for one. At least in some places, your birth is no longer the most important factor in your future success, though I'm not naivé enough to think it's anywhere near irrelevant.

edit: added "for one".

[ChillyPolly]

Personnally I'm a bit more shocked by the racism of counting characters like Alleras (dornian culture) and Moqorro (essosi culture) as Summer Islanders, just because onehas one parent from there, and the other has a dark skin, than by anything a fictionnal culture may do in a fantasy world.

Are you mad? You're calling me a "racist" because I included Sarella on a very short list of named Summer Islanders? I would not have hesitated to include her on a list of "Dornish" people either, but then someone else equally ****** would be calling me a "patriarchal sexist" for denying the relevance of her maternal heritage. Yes she speaks Westerosi, and from her accent she learned it in Dorne, but that does not mean she does not know the Summer Island tongue. And she shoots golden arrows from a goldenheart bow, suggesting her maternal heritage is not entirely irrelvant.

Oh, and nobody knows Moqorro's heritage. That, and his jet black skin, and perhaps other things, is why some speculate he might be Summer Islander.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm not touching the other stuff but IIRC aemon never told sam specifically not to talk to sarella just that the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler.

I'll allow that there is uncertainty here. However, this is pretty much Sam's own interpretation, though he ignores it.

It's in no way obvious weather or not marwyn knows who fPate is.

Well he certainly knows he is not Real Pate. There is no way in hell he would allow Real Pate to be present at super-secret meetings. But there he is, and Marwyn knows he is there.

Why would you assume marwyn would Even want to work with the FM?

He obviously knows he is working with one. Whether he WANTS to is beside the point.

I think we're going to need a POV at the Citadel for awhile

I disagree. The last thing this story needs is Sam, Fake Pate, Alleras and Marwyn in the roles of Harry, Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore, in the Westerosi version of the Hogwarts chronicles.

[Facebookless Man]

Today, for one. At least in some places, your birth is no longer the most important factor in your future success, though I'm not naivé enough to think it's anywhere near irrelevant.

edit: added "for one".

correlation in social status from one generation to the next in the developed world ranges around 0,7 to 0.8

making birth not just the most important factor but significantly more important than every other factor combined

[Slender Aimry Hill]

I disagree. The last thing this story needs is Sam, Fake Pate, Alleras and Marwyn in the roles of Harry, Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore, in the Westerosi version of the Hogwarts chronicles.

hahahaha I like this v v much

[Mikkel]

correlation in social status from one generation to the next in the developed world ranges around 0,7 to 0.8

making birth not just the most important factor but significantly more important than every other factor combined

"the developed world" is a rather large spectrum, with a diverse range of societies, cultures and economic systems and mindsets. So forgive me if I take any person or institution claiming to speak on behalf of or with authority on "the developed world" as whole, with a grain of salt.

[Lord Freypie]

Are you mad? You're calling me a "racist"

I'm not calling you or any poster a racist, was just calling racism this way to class people according to where their parent were from or their skin color, instead of the culture they were educated in.

(or things like "they are of skin color x, the real world ethny xxx have skin color x, so they are the xxxs of Planetos" when their cultures share no particular common points)

[Facebookless Man]

"the developed world" is a rather large spectrum, with a diverse range of societies, cultures and economic systems and mindsets. So forgive me if I take any person or institution claiming to speak on behalf of or with authority on "the developed world" as whole, with a grain of salt.

That's why I gave a range. Anyway, your assumption is wrong regardless of the place you were thinking of. It's universally wrong.Just name the country where you think meritocracy and social mobility are a reality and I'll dig up the numbers for you.

Or, just stick to ideology versus facts.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm not calling you or any poster a racist, I'm calling racism this way to class people according to where their parent were from or their skin color, instead of the culture they were educated in.

You were out of line. You are throwing around the word "racism" (shocking racism, no less) in an ignorant and inappropriate manner. You should apologize. And stop. And nobody classed Sarella by her skin color. Her skin color is not typical Summer Islander. She was "classed" by her culture and heritage, the same reason you have classed her as "Dornish".

Classing her as "Dornish" is not unreasonable either. She has a mother and a father. Please stop trying to be the PC word-police.

[Mikkel]

That's why I gave a range. Anyway, your assumption is wrong regardless of the place you were thinking of. It's universally wrong.Just name the country where you think meritocracy and social mobility are a reality and I'll dig up the numbers for you.

Or, just stick to ideology versus facts.

Did I say anywhere is a pure meritocracy? I don't think I did.

[kimim]

Personnally I'm a bit more shocked by the racism of counting characters like Alleras (dornian culture) and Moqorro (essosi culture) as Summer Islanders, just because one has one parent from there, and the other has a dark skin, than by anything a fictionnal culture may do in a fantasy world.

Not to mention people calling summer islanders "jamaicans" when their only common point is being black, and Jamaica's main actual religions (protestantism, catholicism and jeovah witnesses) aren't at all favoring sexually activity out of marriage (which is nearly the only point we know about Summer Islands one).

And strangely when there are/were RW cultures far more comparable with Summer Island one in their openness about sex they considered sacred (before being converted to monotheism), and who also happen to be islanders and traditionnally used feathers in their clothing, many polynesians cultures, they are not even mentionned in this thread, probably because their skin is not judged the right color.

ps : and by the way even Chataya and Allalaya, who have lived in Westeros for years, can't be seen as representatives of pure SI culture. We have no idea how Summer Islanders from Summer Islands would see prostitution as it's practiced in Westeros (not in a temple, with no intent by the client to honor their gods, very little respect for the "priestess" etc...).

I agree that there's a lot of generalizing going on, but we're forced to generalize, as we don't see Summer Islands. We see Chataya, who has been in Westeros for years, then we see Cinnamon Wind. btw I don't want to find out any more; the story has fragmented enough.

I agree that the culture you are brought up in is more important than the culture of your parents, assuming there was a break--your family emigrated, your parents died, etc. However, culture interpreted as educational-income level is always difficult to change.

EDIT: SI as Jamaica is insane.

[JonathanTheBold]

I see. The damage to child prostitutes does not come from men who are willing to pay strangers to have sex with 13 year old girls. The damage comes from parrots like ChillyPolly who say that these men should not do such things. If it were not for this parrot-created stigma, old men paying pimps to have sex with 13 year old girls would be good for the 13 year old girls.

The term is descriptive and accurate. If it makes you uncomfortable, then that is precisely as it should be. You should not be trying to justify the things you are trying to justify

I don't care. No matter where it happens, you should not engage in it.

Presumably because you don't see any difference between a wife and a prostitute. You should educate yourself.

If it were not for trained warriors, sworn to protect the weak, who would protect 13 year old girls from the pimps who want to carry them off into prostitution?

your assuming they're damaged based on what the fact they you live in a culture where young girls are forced and not raised to consider it just apart of their culture. where in any part of the books does it say they are forced to do anything you seem to assuming a lot

[edd tollett:(]

Well he certainly knows he is not Real Pate. There is no way in hell he would allow Real Pate to be present at super-secret meetings. But there he is, and Marwyn knows he is there.

If anything I would think this means he doesn't no who fPate is. As far as I can tell the FM'S hate dragons and valyrians so why would he want/let them know what he's up to? Besides what makes you think he doesn't trust the real pate? We know little to nothing about there relationship before fPate

I disagree. The last thing this story needs is Sam, Fake Pate, Alleras and Marwyn in the roles of Harry, Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore, in the Westerosi version of the Hogwarts chronicles.

I should have said we need a POV in old town because not only do we need some insight on how the citidel works,maybe even see sam effect the outcome of anther election and hopefully find out what they got stashed away in the basement, but there's a lot going on in old town itself.

It's the oldest, biggest city in westeros and we don't no much about the politics or true feelings/intentions of the hightowers, they seem pretty secretive. Not to mention Euron lurking nearby and the faith, I'd like to know how they feel about the New HS.

I'm not saying we're going to get all this info from sam just that there is alot going on in that neck of the woods and I think/hope we'll get to see some of it first hand