German and/or Scandinavian fantasy

[For_The_Good_Of_The_Realm]

Thanks everyone for your input !

Lots of names were mentioned, even a couple of world renowned classics: Astrid Lindgren and Selma Lagerlof. If we do include them in the list, then, perhaps, we could also add Hans Christian Andersen and E.T.A. Hoffman, whose prose I adore.

Olof Högberg's Den stora vreden has some fantasy elements, though it's mostly an alternate history about northern Sweden in the late 1600s and early 1700s with the Russian war and the reformation of the local administration as the main features. It was published in 1906 and is written in an intentionally archaic language. I don't know if it's ever been translated to English or any other language.

Well, that certainly sounds like something I would TOTALLY read. Too bad it was never translated to English or any other language.

From your description it appears to have some similarities to ''The Hussite Trilogy'' by Andrzej Sapkowski (the author of The Witcher), which is also historical fiction with fantasy elements.

[For_The_Good_Of_The_Realm]

Ronia has a few magical creatures: dangerous flying harpy-like ones (vildvitttror, in German Wilddruden) and at two kinds of trollish/gnomish ones; I guess the "grådvärgar" are in German Graugnomen (grey gnomes) and also somewhat dangerous and the "rumpnissar" (Rumpelwichte) are rather harmless, but stupid.

There is another more fairy tale like (but quite poetic) "fantasy" story by Lindgren: "Mio, my son" (Mio, min Mio).

I forgot about Moers. He is amazing, very probably the most intelligent and eloquent German language fantastic writer of today. But his stuff is quite different from you standard fantasy and it must be hell to translate or even to read without very good command of the language. He is very fond of wordplay and anagrams, his books are full of allusions to all kinds of stuff. (So I think most of his is very suitable for adults, and children, even teenagers might miss quite a bit.)

He even "re-did" a short fantastic novella of 19th cent. Swiss author Gottfried Keller (Spiegel das Kätzchen) as a sprawling fantasy novel set in his world (Der Schrecksenmeister). Like "The name of the rose" was historical fiction about books and Fforde's Thursday Next series (which I gave up after the 2nd book) is alternative history/SF about books, several of Moers are fantasy about books.

I also forgot Preussler because he was mainly a (very good and extremely popular) children's author. His opus magnum, though is more YA and very suitable for adults: Krabat. There's a movie that missed about all the poetry and magic of the original. The story is based on slavic folklore about a "black mill" (with the miller as a magician serving the devil).

I probably should read Funke, should I?

Are you talking about Walter Moers ?

[Jo498]

yes

[mandred torgridson]

With German being my native language I have to say most German fantasy authors are just bad.

Wolfgang Hohlbein is the one who brought me to the genre in general more than 20 years ago and therefore I will keep his name in good memory.

As some might recognize seeing my user name I read and enjoyed some of the books by Bernhard Hennen some years ago - especially "Elfenritter" trilogy.

I did not read it by myself but there is a trilogy written by Claudia Kern which has got some credit for being better than what their fellow-countrymen have produced. It has been tagged as "ASoIaF light".

Maybe I will give this one a try but I am prepared for another disappointment.

[Shinrei]

I'm in the same boat as Mandred. My native tongue is german and i can not recommend any german fantasy writers to the english speaking community. There is nothing there that you have not read in a better version in your own language. German fantasy still is about 20 years behind on what defines the genre nowadays (in the english hemisphere, that is)...they still do the 355234234 iteration of Tolkien and similar stuff.

On top of that, i think the poster who mentioned that german publishers are not willing to take a risk on a german author who's unkown (and tries something different) is spot on. I bet that we have a german Martin or Erikson or Bakker out there...the problem is that he/she will never find a publisher. Let us hope that that unknow author knows how to selfpublish.

[Happy Ent]

For some insanely popular Danish YA: Lene Kaaberbøl, Skammerens Datter. My (pre-teen) daughters loved it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lene_Kaaberbøl

[Buckwheat]

You can find "Spiegel das Kätzchen" online at some of the Gutenberg sites. It is far shorter, but the main plot element is identical: A cat (or zamonian talking cat) sells his fat (= his life) to an ominous alchimist and has somehow to get out of this fatal bargain. Moers is a huge fan of Keller, the Zamonian analogue to Keller is known by his anagram "Gofid Letterkerl" ("letter" as in English, "Kerl" means something like "guy", "bloke"). I probably should read more Keller as well; I read a few of his shorter pieces in my youth, but especially for teenagers looking for the more spectacular (like hysterical and murderous Kleist or grotesque Hoffmann), Keller's stuff may seem rather old-fashioned and trite. Both "Kleider machen Leute" and "Romeo and Julia auf dem Dorfe" (this is probably internationally his best known "A village Romeo and Juliet", there's even an opera!) are more or less standard/obligatory high school fare in Germany (or used to be 25 years ago).

I might be missing something, but there is not such a strong tradition of the fantastic in German literature as in the Anglosphere. The most important writer predates most of the English tradition of the Gothic, though: ETA Hoffmann, but this is more "black romanticism" than alternative worlds or adventure novels. Other romantics were more into fairy tales, of course there is some spooky/gothic stuff there, but not nearly as much or as prominent as in English literature.

I started reading Schrecksenmeister (translated) now. Will see how that goes.

Soooo ... German literature loves its "Teufelspakt" trope, eh? I had to read a bunch of classic texts, mainly novellas, for the literature classes, and at some point I felt like every other story in German literature had to do with that (Peter Schlemihl, Faust, I cannot remember now, but I am sure there were more). I also had to read Keller before (Romeo und Julia auf dem Dorfe in high school even, Kleider machen Leute at the faculty, maybe even another text that I cannot remember now, please do not tell my professor :P ).

/offtopicness

If we are counting dark romanticism into fantasy, then yeah, Hoffmann certainly qualifies. But it is not the "fantasy" that is usually spoken of in the context of this forum.

[Happy Ent]

If you want something offer Bakkerian ambition (in terms of literary posing, intertextuality, prose, etc.), have a look at Siegfriend and Kriemhild, a reinterpretation of the Nibelungenlied. I hated every page and stopped reading half-way in. But it’s certainly something .

[For_The_Good_Of_The_Realm]

With German being my native language I have to say most German fantasy authors are just bad.

Wolfgang Hohlbein is the one who brought me to the genre in general more than 20 years ago and therefore I will keep his name in good memory.

As some might recognize seeing my user name I read and enjoyed some of the books by Bernhard Hennen some years ago - especially "Elfenritter" trilogy.

I did not read it by myself but there is a trilogy written by Claudia Kern which has got some credit for being better than what their fellow-countrymen have produced. It has been tagged as "ASoIaF light".

Maybe I will give this one a try but I am prepared for another disappointment.

How does Hennen stack up against his english/american counterparts ? Does he write in "gritty" and "realistic" fashion or is of more "heroic/epic" kind ? What are his notable strenghts as a writer ?

[Lyanna Stark]

Well Ende is fantastic. Read him in Swedish and a little in English translation. Both Neverending Story and Momo are fabulous reads. One of my favourite YA authors of all time. (And also the reason a lot of my computer game avatars are called "Auryn".)

As for Swedish authors, I remember reading that 70s series by Bertil something that Galactus mentioned and it was indeed very weird. I only really know good YA (Astrid Lindgren again, my son is named after The Brothers Lionheart) and paranormal/horror. In the latter category, Jonas Ajvide Lindqvist who wrote the novel the movie "Let the right one in", is very readable. Horror with strong supernatural elements and some pretty good characters. Definitely no traditional heroes either.

Phone posting, apologies for odd grammar.

[mandred torgridson]

How does Hennen stack up against his english/american counterparts ? Does he write in "gritty" and "realistic" fashion or is of more "heroic/epic" kind ? What are his notable strenghts as a writer ?

Hennen has started his "Elfen..." books by writing some standalones. In my opinion these books are readable but nothing groundbreaking.

In his "Elfenritter" trilogy he managed to give his characters more depth. Also the story of the war between the inquisition and the "Albenmark" with some of the characters standing between the fronts has been developed quite nicely. Some grittiness included as well.

Although he is not on a level with the ones like Martin, Rothfuss, Bakker, Abraham etc. he is a far better storyteller than most of his fellow countrymen and his prose is a lot better.

After reading the first pages on Amazon I have decided to buy the first book of Claudia Kern`s trilogy. Let`s hope and see...

[Jo498]

I now read Funke's Tintenherz/Inkheart and I am not particularly impressed. I think of myself as quite open to children/YA books and I also love books about books (like Neverending Story and The name of the rose), but this is merely decent, not great. The story is o.k., but very slow in the beginning and the twists rather predictable. I also found the language rather trite, not very evocative or poetic. IMO not nearly in the league of Ende. I think I'll skip the others from this trilogy.

[Wilbur]

I'm in the same boat as Mandred. My native tongue is german and i can not recommend any german fantasy writers to the english speaking community. There is nothing there that you have not read in a better version in your own language. German fantasy still is about 20 years behind on what defines the genre nowadays (in the english hemisphere, that is)...they still do the 355234234 iteration of Tolkien and similar stuff.

On top of that, i think the poster who mentioned that german publishers are not willing to take a risk on a german author who's unkown (and tries something different) is spot on. I bet that we have a german Martin or Erikson or Bakker out there...the problem is that he/she will never find a publisher. Let us hope that that unknow author knows how to selfpublish.

It is interesting to hear you say that, as I heard a very similar sentiment from two of the folks I worked with in Dresden who I talked with about books.

One of them, the head of the IT department for our factory, recommended The Hammer and the Cross to me, and his recommendation is that although it was not a German book, it was the best Viking/Germanic myth writing that he liked. He said that it was the sort of work that would never be published in Germany.

I ended up really enjoying the book, written by Harry Harrison and Tom Shipper (writing as John Holm), as well as the two sequels.

• The Hammer and the Cross (1993)

One King's Way (1994)

King and Emperor (1996)

[Buckwheat]

I now read Funke's Tintenherz/Inkheart and I am not particularly impressed. I think of myself as quite open to children/YA books and I also love books about books (like Neverending Story and The name of the rose), but this is merely decent, not great. The story is o.k., but very slow in the beginning and the twists rather predictable. I also found the language rather trite, not very evocative or poetic. IMO not nearly in the league of Ende. I think I'll skip the others from this trilogy.

Bringing this thread from the dead to confirm this. I reread Tintenherz in German now and I must sadly say it does not hold up after so many years. The language tries too hard and ends up repetitive and empty.

Walter Moers, on the other hand, the man is a genius. I laughed so hard when in Ensel und Krete

the fictional author Hildegunst chimes in and begins talking about some totally unrelated stuff in that self-indulgent manner.

I just wish his characterisation were better. I also read Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher (City of Dreaming Books) and found it really hard to feel anything about the main character, even after 500 pages of his journey. Moers' strengths are really the ridiculous worldbuilding that does not even try to pretend it is serious and the funny twists of the language.

[messem]

I'm in the same boat as Mandred. My native tongue is german and i can not recommend any german fantasy writers to the english speaking community. There is nothing there that you have not read in a better version in your own language. German fantasy still is about 20 years behind on what defines the genre nowadays (in the english hemisphere, that is)...they still do the 355234234 iteration of Tolkien and similar stuff.

Doing Tolkien and similar stuff? Certainly you do not talk about Michael Ende, Walter Moers or Wolfgang Hohlbein. You sound like like many (Sorry) apologetic Germans.

I do not know about the translations but in German Michael Ende and most of Walter Moers is recommendable without hesitation.

I haven't read the Inkheart trilogy but it has been translated to 24 languages. Not necessarily a sign for quality. but ..

[Jo498]

The main fantasy books by Ende, Momo and Neverending Story, are about 35 years old and rather independent from Tolkienish anglosaxon Fantasy.

Of course there is a lot of derivative stuff, sometimes RPG-related, but I doubt that these were translated and they should be rather easy to spot. While I was not that impressed by "Inkheart", it is also quite far removed from "Tolkienish" standard fantasy (it's closer to Fforde and Ende with "books coming alive").

Moers is pretty unique and almost "orthogonal" to main- or sidestream english language fantasy. I do not think I have read *any* other contemporary fantasy author with such peculiar gift of language, irony and storytelling (although Buckwheat has a point that often his characters are not easy to sympathize with and can be a little flat).

The closest I can think of (but still quite different) are Lewis Carroll and Terry Pratchett. He seems also fond of sprawling nested stories like in the Arabian Nights or the Saragossa Manuscript.

As hard as such comparisons are, especially with the very different focuses these writers has, I think that for the quality of their writing and storytelling, Ende or Moers are at least as good as GRRM (I'd say that they are actually better stylistically and in other "technical" respects).

[Shinrei]

Doing Tolkien and similar stuff? Certainly you do not talk about Michael Ende, Walter Moers or Wolfgang Hohlbein. You sound like like many (Sorry) apologetic Germans.

I do not know about the translations but in German Michael Ende and most of Walter Moers is recommendable without hesitation.

I haven't read the Inkheart trilogy but it has been translated to 24 languages. Not necessarily a sign for quality. but ..

I'm not apologetic...just honest. It's my opinion.

But, to at least put in a caveat : I do not read more of Moers (not my cup of tea, so not part of my fantasy "menu" and i wouldn't recommend him even to a german reader) and i totally forgot about Ende. But The Neverending story is more of a fairy-tale, childrens-story to me (ymmv etc etc ).

And Hohlbein? You got to be joking! There's no bigger Hack than him.

[Buckwheat]

The main fantasy books by Ende, Momo and Neverending Story, are about 35 years old and rather independent from Tolkienish anglosaxon Fantasy.

Of course there is a lot of derivative stuff, sometimes RPG-related, but I doubt that these were translated and they should be rather easy to spot. While I was not that impressed by "Inkheart", it is also quite far removed from "Tolkienish" standard fantasy (it's closer to Fforde and Ende with "books coming alive").

Moers is pretty unique and almost "orthogonal" to main- or sidestream english language fantasy. I do not think I have read *any* other contemporary fantasy author with such peculiar gift of language, irony and storytelling (although Buckwheat has a point that often his characters are not easy to sympathize with and can be a little flat).

The closest I can think of (but still quite different) are Lewis Carroll and Terry Pratchett. He seems also fond of sprawling nested stories like in the Arabian Nights or the Saragossa Manuscript.

As hard as such comparisons are, especially with the very different focuses these writers has, I think that for the quality of their writing and storytelling, Ende or Moers are at least as good as GRRM (I'd say that they are actually better stylistically and in other "technical" respects).

I have thought about the comparison between Moers and Pratchett before. I would need to read more Pratchett to be able to think about it some more, but if you (or anybody else reading the thread) could expand on it, it would be very welcome. :)

I'm not apologetic...just honest. It's my opinion.

But, to at least put in a caveat : I do not read more of Moers (not my cup of tea, so not part of my fantasy "menu" and i wouldn't recommend him even to a german reader) and i totally forgot about Ende. But The Neverending story is more of a fairy-tale, childrens-story to me (ymmv etc etc ).

And Hohlbein? You got to be joking! There's no bigger Hack than him.

Interestingly enough, I was browsing a large bookstore here yesterday ("here" being Austria), and found all Moers' books (including Ensel und Krete, which is supposed to be for children) shelved under "Romane" - novels, not under fantasy and not under children's/teenager's literature. I found it quite odd. Apparently whoever was responsible of placing the books thought Moers is too good to be stacked under fantasy, and here we are again by the ghettoisation of fantasy. In the other bookstore, Moers' books are under fantasy, so apparently they do not agree with each other. :P

The Neverending Story can be read by children, and can be accepted as a fairy-tale on that level. However, if read by an adult, it will be understood on a deeper level, and there are some messages that are quite deep and also relevant for adults in there. Sort of like the Little Prince, only better.

Cannot comment on Hohlbein, have not read.

[Dolorous Ned]

Walter Moers is a genius when it comes to use of language and worldbuilding, and he can be incredibly funny, but his plots and some of his characters are pretty weak. Half of "City of Dreaming Books" seems to consist of fighting random monsters, then fighting even more random monsters. Fast, entertaining reads, but nothing really great (although they're quite popular among 'literary' circles that would never touch other fantasy novels, due to all the allusions to classic authors and the literary scene)

I loved the Inkheart trilogy as a teenager, don't know how I'd rate the books today. But I felt like the series really came into its own in Inkspell (book 2) when (Spoiler) you enter the Inkworld, really enjoyed Funkes worldbuilding.
So maybe you guys might enjoy it even if you didn't like Inkheart. Inkspell and Inkdeath are also a lot darker and much less YA than Inkheart.

I've read some of Hohlbein's books, I don't remember much of them, but I think with most of his books I liked the premise of the story, but he hardly ever did anything interesting with it and the endings were pretty random and disappointing.

Markus Heitz is standard Tolkien-imitator popcorn fantasy, but the first "Dwarves" book still had some interesting characters.

Christoph Marzi is great and pretty unique, but I don't know if his books are available in English.

Kai Meyer has some pretty good YA books.

All in all, there really aren't any German fantasy authors who could rival any of the greats. I was pretty desperate as a fantasy fan before I discovered ASOIAF.

[Jo498]

I normally don't expect "really great" from fantasy, but rather quick and entertaining reads. GRRM is not really great either (especially book 4 and 5). But I enjoy the irony and literary allusions of Moers a lot, although I agree that the books are sometimes too sprawling and there are twists for twists sake. And the sheer imagination of a lot of its completely ridiculous creatures etc. is quite something. He shares the allusions and the irony with Pratchett and also the ability to be completely ridiculous and serious almost at the same time. (They are still quite different in many respects, Moers is more obsessed with narrative devices like nested stories, obnoxious commentary by the smartass author/editor von Mythenmetz, Anagrams etc.)

And that characterization of City of dreaming books is wrong. In the first third or so there is hardly any fighting at all, just a "tourist on vacation".

I don't really care if one classifies e.g. Neverending story, Krabat or Ronia, the Robber's daughter as children's books. They are still better written and more poetic than lots of contemporary fantasy (which does not say much as almost all of this is horrible in the language and style department).

And one point of recommending this stuff or Moers is precisely that they are often very different from the run of the mill pseudo-Tolkien fare.