What if Lyanna had lived?

[Shadow Cat 75]

If R+L=J is true what would have happened if Lyanna had made it through child birth?

I know it is never said in the books but I don't think Robert would have just taken Nedd's word that his sister was dead, he would want to see the body of the woman he loves so they couldn't fake her death. He would also want to know where she was buried so that he could honor her. And Robert is not going to take it if Lyanna has a Dragon for a son.

So what do you think would have happened if Lyanna had lived?

[TallTyrion]

I think Ned still takes Jon and raises him as his own. Lyanna would have to go to the capital and marry Robert if not the only other option would be to flee to essos and live in exile. She's too famous to be sheltered by the Daynes or anyother Westrosi House.

[Pod The Impaler]

Ned would try to shelter the child in anonymity, but I doubt even he could part the she-wolf from her cub.

[Shadow Cat 75]

I think Ned still takes Jon and raises him as his own. Lyanna would have to go to the capital and marry Robert if not the only other option would be to flee to essos and live in exile. She's too famous to be sheltered by the Daynes or anyother Westrosi House.

I would agree but I don't think she would give up her son, Nedd said she had Iron under her looks.

[TallTyrion]

I would agree but I don't think she would give up her son, Nedd said she had Iron under her looks.

Yeah if she flees then Jon may go with her, although he would probably have a better life at Winterfell.

[James Steller]

Where would she go, though? Robert would never ever stop looking for her. If Ned tries to help her and Robert finds out, that friendship is over.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

There are a number of scenarios possible.

If Lyanna lives but Jon doesn't, Robert takes her as wife anyway, and the official story about What Happened is what we know from canon. There would really be nothing that she could do to prevent Robert from taking her as his wife and Queen.

If Lyanna lives and Jon does, then things get messier. I think some combination of Ned, Howland, and (depending upon where their sympathies lie ) sympathetic Daynes attempt to shelter Jon. If he looks as he does in canon, Ned passes him off as his bastard whether Lya likes it or not -- the alternative would be his death, and after word gets to TOJ about the Sack, it's not a chance she can take if she wants her son to live. If he looks more Targ, then to Starfall and perhaps eventually Essos he goes.

I just can't see a surviving Lyanna getting out of being Robert's wife if Rhaegar is dead. There is no way that Westeros can ever know the truth if she went with Rhaegar willingly. Her reputation would be dirt -- she'd be called the Whore of Winterfell. Between Robert and Ned, she wouldn't have any other choice except to marry him. Robert wants to possess her; Ned would have a delicate political situation on his hands if she lived with him and never married. And with Jon's life at stake, I think she'd be a little less impetuous.

[James Steller]

Here's the next question I'd have. What would Lyanna and Robert's marriage be like?

Obviously she doesn't love him and he adores her but would still cheat on her.

Unless you can actually buy that he'd stay faithful for her :bs:

Since we can safely rule out incest on Lyanna's part, as well as the idea that she'd abort her children with Robert, then we'd have a few dark-haired boys and girls running around with Stark and Baratheon blood coursing through their veins.

That leaves the question of what Cersei would be doing and who she'd be married off to.

[TallTyrion]

Where would she go, though? Robert would never ever stop looking for her. If Ned tries to help her and Robert finds out, that friendship is over.

Ned can just tell Robert she's dead. Make a fake grave for her at Winterfell and have her flee across the Narrow sea.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

She'd commit suicide.

Apart from the emotional backlash of being responsible for the death of more than half your family (both sides) and thousands of people in a nasty war, she would be politically stuck and a gargantuan danger for her son.

She'd be better off dead.

[TallTyrion]

Here's the next question I'd have. What would Lyanna and Robert's marriage be like?

Obviously she doesn't love him and he adores her but would still cheat on her.

Unless you can actually buy that he'd stay faithful for her :bs:

Since we can safely rule out incest on Lyanna's part, as well as the idea that she'd abort her children with Robert, then we'd have a few dark-haired boys and girls running around with Stark and Baratheon blood coursing through their veins.

That leaves the question of what Cersei would be doing and who she'd be married off to.

Love isn't really relevant for marriages in Westeros. Even in the real world marrying for love is a relatively recent concept.

Robert probably still drinks and whores around like he did with Cersei but he would have an actual heir.

Tough to say who Cersei would end up with. Maybe Stannis although I'm not sure when he married Selyse I always assumed it was after the rebellion. Willas Tyrell is really the only other option in terms of the great houses.

[TallTyrion]

She'd commit suicide.

Apart from the emotional backlash of being responsible for the death of more than half your family (both sides) and thousands of people in a nasty war, she would be politically stuck and a gargantuan danger for her son.

She'd be better off dead.

Harsh but you may be right that's a hell of a lot to live with.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I could see Cersei marrying either Stannis or Oberyn...

Agree that Robert and Lyanna would have trueborn children. While the jury's out on the kind of husband he'd be in a happier marriage, I don't know that he would have let himself go in the same way if his Lyanna had been returned to him. There may be an indiscretion or two when he and Lya are fighting, but it actually may have been a surprisingly happy marriage.

Both of them would've hated the hell out of King's Landing and royal politics, so they could've bonded over that. They were both larger than life kinds of people who enjoyed hunting and sparring. Robert might have tried to make a lady out of Lya, but she would have likely wrapped him around her fingers. Besides, Robert had no sisters, so beyond a vague sense of what was proper for ladies to do, he may not have minded. Lyanna's reputation was what it was, and he still burned for her. She didn't want him, but after the ordeal of RR, time and circumstances might lead her to care deeply for him.

The great irony is that Robert and Lyanna probably would have been happy together... a royal version of Ned and Cat. And as much as I love Rhaegar and Lyanna (if I ship anything in ASOIAF, it's them -- I adore medieval ballads & tragic romances), it's really very difficult to see them being happy long term, simply because at heart they're two different kinds of people. And we can't castigate Rob for adultery, while absolving Rhaegar of the same thing.

(Gah... what did I just write?! I'm generally Team Targ and Woe to the Usurper... could I be... developing a soft spot for the guy?)

One more thing: I do think getting Lyanna may have led Robert to relent on his pursuit of the Targaryen children. I could see Lya persuading Rob to foster Rhaella's children with his most loyal bannermen -- Viserys to Casterly Rock with Tywin, and Dany may have ended up at Winterfell. Robert's hatred wasn't just about securing his throne. It was payback.

[TallTyrion]

I could see Cersei marrying either Stannis or Oberyn...

I don't think Dorne would agree to that. Lyanna living doesn't change what happened during the sack of King's Landing. There was a time when that would have been a good match but Oberyn's sister being murdered by Lannister men spoils that.

[Shadow Cat 75]

I am pretty sure Stannis was married before the war, since they got married at Storm's End and after the war he was Lord of Dragon Stone so the wedding would have happened there not at Storm's End. Also in one of the history video specials from HBO it is said he gave some of the Onions to his wife during the siege of Storm's End during the war.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I don't think Dorne would agree to that. Lyanna living doesn't change what happened during the sack of King's Landing. There was a time when that would have been a good match but Oberyn's sister being murdered by Lannister men spoils that.

You're right, of course, about Oberyn. Scratch Dorne.

She'd commit suicide.

Apart from the emotional backlash of being responsible for the death of more than half your family (both sides) and thousands of people in a nasty war, she would be politically stuck and a gargantuan danger for her son.

She'd be better off dead.

Nah, not Lyanna. It's clear that she's a combination of both her nieces, and Arya and Sansa are survivors.

So maybe my post above is too enthusiastic. Maybe she'd always hate Robert. That is possible too, especially if she loses Jon to death or must never acknowledge him.

But just as Sansa is learning the Game and Arya has her lists of names she recites, I could imagine a scenario where Queen Lyanna Baratheon plots a demise for King Robert that would make Cersei Lannister seem kind.

But she is not committing suicide.

ETA:

I am pretty sure Stannis was married before the war, since they got married at Storm's End and after the war he was Lord of Dragon Stone so the wedding would have happened there not at Storm's End. Also in one of the history video specials from HBO it is said he gave some of the Onions to his wife during the siege of Storm's End during the war.

Dammit! Forgot about Westeros' infant marriages. Grinding my teeth in very Stannis-like fashion right now because I was sure his youth would make him a suitable candidate for marriage.

Then Houston, you've got a Cersei Lannister problem. Who does she marry, Benjen? There are no more LP heirs for her to have except Willas and Renly, who are far younger than she is. And she's Tywin's daughter. She has to marry someone...

[unitron]

I don't think Dorne would agree to that. Lyanna living doesn't change what happened during the sack of King's Landing. There was a time when that would have been a good match but Oberyn's sister being murdered by Lannister men spoils that.

Which would help insure that in the court of King Robert and Queen Lyanna, the Lannisters would have very little influence.

Well, until Robert got heavily in debt to them.

[Good Guy Garlan]

You're right, of course, about Oberyn. Scratch Dorne.

Nah, not Lyanna. It's clear that she's a combination of both her nieces, and Arya and Sansa are survivors.

So maybe my post above is too enthusiastic. Maybe she'd always hate Robert. That is possible too, especially if she loses Jon to death or must never acknowledge him.

But just as Sansa is learning the Game and Arya has her lists of names she recites, I could imagine a scenario where Queen Lyanna Baratheon plots a demise for King Robert that would make Cersei Lannister seem kind.

But she is not committing suicide.

ETA:

Dammit! Forgot about Westeros' infant marriages. Grinding my teeth in very Stannis-like fashion right now because I was sure his youth would make him a suitable candidate for marriage.

Then Houston, you've got a Cersei Lannister problem. Who does she marry, Benjen? There are no more LP heirs for her to have except Willas and Renly, who are far younger than she is. And she's Tywin's daughter. She has to marry someone...

Edmure. He's a bit young for her, sure, but maybe Tywin wanted to be one of the cool rebel kids, even if a marriage to Willas would make more sense politically

[TallTyrion]

I am pretty sure Stannis was married before the war, since they got married at Storm's End and after the war he was Lord of Dragon Stone so the wedding would have happened there not at Storm's End. Also in one of the history video specials from HBO it is said he gave some of the Onions to his wife during the siege of Storm's End during the war.

Yeah it's tough to say. The History and Lore extras are show based and not canon they get a lot of stuff wrong so we can't tell based on that.

The wedding being at Storm's End is a good indication that it may have happened before the war. I always assumed it was after since Stannis is younger so it seems a bit strange that he would be married before Robert.

Which would help insure that in the court of King Robert and Queen Lyanna, the Lannisters would have very little influence.

Well, until Robert got heavily in debt to them.

Possibly but the Dornish still hold Robert accountable for the deaths. The Sand Snakes talk about eliminating his line. Him marrying Cersei may have fanned those flames a bit but I think the animosity would still be there.

[Veltigar]

If Lyanna would have lived, there is good chance that Jon or Viserys might have become King imo. Lyanna and Ned together would be able to convince Robert I think. That would mean that the Baratheons and Starks are open to the possibility. Tully's and Arryns would follow the Starks lead, since they stand to gain an awful lot (relation to the next king). Tywin could be brought into the fold I'm sure, especially if Cersei was wed to Edmure. Targaryen loyalists wouldn't feel the need to grumble.

Lyanna could have been wed to Robert. He would then be named Lord Protector of the Realm. Viserys and Dany could be brought back and given to foster with Ned or Jon (who did a bang up job as parents). Viserys could have been wed to Arianne eventually. Margaery or Daenerys could be wed to Jon, etc.