Pilusmagnus Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 If they do as Littlefinger says at the end of Feast, do they have a chance of conquering the North on their own? Or would they need allies? Are they strong enough to change the tide in Westerosi politics on their own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The Vale is militarily equal to the North at the beginning of the series, but probably wealthier. They don't stand a chance of invading and conquering the North on their own. Certainly not in the middle of winter. LF is a good politician, ruler and a great manipulator, but he's not a general. I'd like to think he knows hat the Vale can't conquer the North and is just telling Sansa what he thinks she wants to hear, because an invasion of the North is doomed to fail. Especially in winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 But the North is weak and in constant feud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newboy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 But the North is weak and in constant feud. So was Russia when Hitler tried to take it. "The North cannot be held - Not by an outsider. It's too big, too wild." And the Knights of the Vale are too tame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I would imagine that while the North has more men during peace time a lot of those men have died or are still wandering about the Riverlands in warbands. What forces are left are devided btween at least three factions: The Boltons, the Manderleys and Stannis. Meanwhile the Vale has lost no one and is united under a single leader (probably). But the point of LF's plan is everyone would unite under Sansa because she is the last trueborn Stark known to exist. He doesn't need to fight... which makes life very dangerous for Rickon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petyr's Little Finger Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The Vale is probably one of the most powerful houses militarily with the other kingdoms (except Dorne) suffering major losses. Still they aren't going to invade the North, it's too big for them too hold, and they have to get past Moat Cailin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 @Newboy That sounds like what the Greatjon was saying about weak Southrons. He wasn't saying by the end of the war. :P They wouldn't be able to conquer the North for several reasons, but it has nothing to do with them being tame. @Oafkeeper He wants to unite them under Harry, but that depends on Harry agreeing to marry his bastard and going for his plan. I still find it hard to believe they'll try and invade the North in winter. Besides, Rickon will probably be back by then and his claim to WF supercedes Sansas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Vale is very strong and could run over North easy,but there is no reason for them to take north,there is nothing there...... just snow....Problem Vale facing is that there is no unity among them and while LF can rule them i think taking them to war can be much more difficult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The Vale is militarily equal to the North at the beginning of the series, but probably wealthier. They don't stand a chance of invading and conquering the North on their own. Certainly not in the middle of winter. LF is a good politician, ruler and a great manipulator, but he's not a general. I'd like to think he knows hat the Vale can't conquer the North and is just telling Sansa what he thinks she wants to hear, because an invasion of the North is doomed to fail. Especially in winter. I agree with this . The last thing I think Littlefinger wants to do is go North . He does not have the resources up there (his spy network) there is no wealth up there plus his brand of politics just would not play as well in the North and it's cold as hell. He's keeping Sansa on a string by telling her that . Think about how dangerous she is to him . She is the one person who knows about him killing Jon Arryn and Lysa and instead of keeping her hidden somewhere he has her out in plain sight . The only way he can trust that she will not spill his secrets is one,she afraid to trust anybody (which he constantly reinforces ) and two because she thinks he's looking out for her . He will keep telling her what she wants to hear until he makes his move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The Vale has about 50,000 men. That makes them the second-strongest after the Tyrells in the current situation, depending on how exactly the Ironborn invasion proceeded maybe even the strongest. They could never conquer the North though. Apart from the North's swords (not far less), the territory is too big and too far away. What the Vale could do would be providing support to Sansa Stark in gathering Northmen to the Direwolf and taking on the Flayed Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Davos Martell Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The Vale could not conquer the North, not now at least. Just look at the Siege of Winterfell, the knights of Stannis did bad enough in Winter conditions, so how are you going to move a force of 50.000 knights, most on horse probably (From what I have read, the Vale seems big on the whole Knight on horse thing) up to the North in winter conditions? If they try to march up the neck, they will face a long and attritional march, and if they try to go by the sea, they might loose large part of their force because of the large storms. Also, where is the Vale going to get enough ships? In short the strenght of the military of the Vale can be, depending on the situation, be summed up as:1: Defensive war in the Vale: Invincible without Dragons2: Normal war, such as the battle of the Trident: On par with the best3: War in the North during Winter: More arrowfodder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Amey Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The Vale is probably one of the most powerful houses militarily with the other kingdoms (except Dorne) suffering major losses. Still they aren't going to invade the North, it's too big for them too hold, and they have to get past Moat Cailin If they have ships, all they have to do is past through White Harbor and they have near straight shot to winterfell, but the point is taken, taken the whole of the North would be impossible for any Realm, Taking the Capital for strategic purpose is another story entirely The Vale has about 50,000 men. That makes them the second-strongest after the Tyrells in the current situation, depending on how exactly the Ironborn invasion proceeded maybe even the strongest. They could never conquer the North though. Apart from the North's swords (not far less), the territory is too big and too far away. What the Vale could do would be providing support to Sansa Stark in gathering Northmen to the Direwolf and taking on the Flayed Man. Having 50,000 doesn't mean you can immediately field 50K straight away. On the fly, best you can get is 20K Conquering the Whole of the North is fool's errand, Taking a capital and putting a ruler there is now accomplish-able. The Vale is not far from the North, by Ship it is less than a days ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Invading the North might be possible for the Vale if they hire a shitload of ships, but conquering it would be impossble. It's to wast, to populous, and still has a notable amount of men (though not as many as the Vale do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 If they have ships, all they have to do is past through White Harbor and they have near straight shot to winterfell, but the point is taken, taken the whole of the North would be impossible for any Realm, Taking the Capital for strategic purpose is another story entirely Having 50,000 doesn't mean you can immediately field 50K straight away. On the fly, best you can get is 20K Conquering the Whole of the North is fool's errand, Taking a capital and putting a ruler there is now accomplish-able. The Vale is not far from the North, by Ship it is less than a days ride. I think any long term took over of the north by an outside power is unfeasible in long terms. at best you would end up assimilated to the ways and culture within a generation. supporting people who are already there i could see and i could see that being part of LF's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 If they have ships, all they have to do is past through White Harbor and they have near straight shot to winterfell, but the point is taken, taken the whole of the North would be impossible for any Realm, Taking the Capital for strategic purpose is another story entirely Having 50,000 doesn't mean you can immediately field 50K straight away. On the fly, best you can get is 20K Conquering the Whole of the North is fool's errand, Taking a capital and putting a ruler there is now accomplish-able. The Vale is not far from the North, by Ship it is less than a days ride. More like two weeks to a month. Unless you mean the hop from the basically empty Sisters to the basically useless Oldcastle. But Gulltown to White Harbor? That's 1,200-1,500 miles of travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark_Tamer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think it is just semantics. They wouldn't actually be conquering THE NORTH, but ousting the unwanted Bolton leadership in the North. It is a bit of a race, yes? Whoever can put a Stark back in Winterfell first will get the Stark loyalists and because all the Starks are kids, they may THINK that gives them the North, though I suspect either Sansa or Jon, by the time they get there, will command enough strategic skills to not be used by whomever has the house. Only Rickon would leave the house still super vulnerable. I think Littlefinger is counting on Sansa inspiring all the non-Bolton houses of the North to turn on Bolton. THAT doesn't need military dominance. Just enough power to seat her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickrs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Doesn't the Vale's mountain passes get closed during the winter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think it is just semantics. They wouldn't actually be conquering THE NORTH, but ousting the unwanted Bolton leadership in the North. It is a bit of a race, yes? Whoever can put a Stark back in Winterfell first will get the Stark loyalists and because all the Starks are kids, they may THINK that gives them the North, though I suspect either Sansa or Jon, by the time they get there, will command enough strategic skills to not be used by whomever has the house. Only Rickon would leave the house still super vulnerable. I think Littlefinger is counting on Sansa inspiring all the non-Bolton houses of the North to turn on Bolton. THAT doesn't need military dominance. Just enough power to seat her. THIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I agree that LF is telling Sansa what she wants to hear. However, what he's suggesting is hardly "conquering the North." He says, IIRC, that the knights of the Vale will fight to win back Sansa's birth right. Well given the current situation in the North that could be accomplished. Manderly is so desperate for support that he's willing to use Stannis to get a Stark back in Winterfell. (just for the sake of this I'm assuming it will play out as described by LF) If Harry, Arryn Lord of the Vale at this point, contacts Wyman Manderly saying he has just married Sansa Stark and is willing to pledge the Vale support in putting a Stark back in Winterfell I can't see him saying no. You then have a safe port to land in and I'm guessing lots of Northmen will flock to your cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think it is just semantics. They wouldn't actually be conquering THE NORTH, but ousting the unwanted Bolton leadership in the North. It is a bit of a race, yes? Whoever can put a Stark back in Winterfell first will get the Stark loyalists and because all the Starks are kids, they may THINK that gives them the North, though I suspect either Sansa or Jon, by the time they get there, will command enough strategic skills to not be used by whomever has the house. Only Rickon would leave the house still super vulnerable. I think Littlefinger is counting on Sansa inspiring all the non-Bolton houses of the North to turn on Bolton. THAT doesn't need military dominance. Just enough power to seat her. I understand why Sansa would want to do this but what I don't understand is what Littlefinger would be looking to gain from attacking the North . He's a con man so you always have to look at what angle he's playing and I just don't see the angle for him to use his resources up North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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