Heresy 150 and more fallout from that letter

[Voice]

I took this to mean something sweet and simple as in, what his power was connected to and when he got it.Not specifically when the sunset but the Night in question was of another nature.Hmmm

On the first read, I'm sure that's how I took it as well. But, Old Nan clears the air quite emphatically in this paragraph:

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

So, maybe I'm not as crackpot as you thought eh?

She tells us, literally, that:

1. Nights King was only a Stark of Winterfell by light of day

2. the night was his to rule

3. Mayhaps his name was Brandon

[Voice]

That could be what they prefer to do, and so call themselves those who sing the songs of earth... Though it needn't be prescriptive.

Anything is possible, but when large-scale shifts of earth occur, tsunamis are the result. I think folks are looking at the result and thinking it's the cause.

Children of the forest live underground and the seat of their religion is buried in the roots of trees. They wear earthenware as clothing. They sing the song of earth. I think their magics are limited to Earthworks alone.

This may also be connected to the idea of waking giants from the earth. I've speculated in the past that the giants may simply be seismic activity instigated by the vast network of weirwood roots beneath the landmass of Westeros. I believe Westeros is uniquely involved in the Song of Ice and Fire because it is built upon this vast, ancient network of weirwood roots.

[Urrax2]

Rickon didnt even want Rickon.

Shaggydog. pfft. if rickon ever wielded a sword he'd probaby call it stabbystick

Rickon will become very important to the story. He will end as lord of Winterfell and chief of the Starks. It is known.

[wolfmaid7]

On the first read, I'm sure that's how I took it as well. But, Old Nan clears the air quite emphatically in this paragraph:

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

So, maybe I'm not as crackpot as you thought eh?

She tells us, literally, that:

1. Nights King was only a Stark of Winterfell by light of day

2. the night was his to rule

3. Mayhaps his name was Brandon

I get the feeling i'm missing something here for sure.

He wasn't only a Stark of Winterfell by day.He was always a Stark of Winterfell. Did that status somehow change at night?

[Gilly for the gillyflower]

Rickon will become very important to the story. He will end as lord of Winterfell and chief of the Starks. It is known.

Have you ever heard of a Shaggydog story? I hadn't but apparently it means a story that goes nowhere. There have been a few threads that discuss it. If this is why Martin chose that name then it implies Rickon's storyline is meaningless.

[Voice]

Have you ever heard of a Shaggydog story? I hadn't but apparently it means a story that goes nowhere. There have been a few threads that discuss it. If this is why Martin chose that name then it implies Rickon's storyline is meaningless.

Indeed. It is known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story

[Voice]

I get the feeling i'm missing something here for sure.

He wasn't only a Stark of Winterfell by day.He was always a Stark of Winterfell. Did that status somehow change at night?

Well, it doesn't say he was always a Stark of Winterfell . . .

But yes! Night's King only being a Stark of Winterfell by day is precisely why I think he was going all loco split-personality on the Night's Watch.

By day he was a Stark of the Falling Winter. By night, he was Night's King and laying with the pale woman with eyes like stars. He was a double agent.

Now, bearing in mind all this takes place during the Age of Heroes, and the fact that Bran the Builder is of the Age of Heroes, and that BtB is the first Stark of the Falling Winter . . . and the fact that Old Nan says NK was a Stark, and mayhaps his name was Brandon . . .

[Voice]

Another thought/angle . . .

I know NK might not be BtB, and that part is definitely open for debate, but Old Nan declares with great certainty that he was indeed a Stark.

That means, while we may not know his first name, as it has been stricken from the record, we do know that the 13th Lord Commander was a Stark.

Given the parallels between him and the Last Hero, and the likelihood of WF's godswood being the very barrow the last hero learned the "magics" from the cotf, I think this line of reasoning forms a fairly compelling argument for LH=NK=13th LC=SiW, or perhaps more aptly, LH=NK=13th LC=Stark of the Falling Winter.

By day, he was preaching how Winter would Fall, and working toward that end. By night, he was sacrificing to the Others and preaching that Winter is Coming.

[Balerion06]

Have you ever heard of a Shaggydog story? I hadn't but apparently it means a story that goes nowhere. There have been a few threads that discuss it. If this is why Martin chose that name then it implies Rickon's storyline is meaningless.

Considering Rickon hasn't even had a story so far, he's more likely intended to be an ironic inverse of a shaggydog story, i.e. a seemingly pointless character whose importance suddenly balloons right towards the end.

[Eira Seren]

I agree, 10k seems a bit too clean to be historically precise. But, then... all of Westerosi history is dated in nicely rounded numbers. So the question that begs explanation is not, "why so round?," but rather: "why such different round numbers?" After all, precise or imprecise... 8,000 yrs is not the same as 10,000 yrs. And Catelyn Stark is no maester, no historian - so whatever figure appears in her head will reflect a received tradition. In other words - she's not staking out her own position, distinct from the commonly accepted story of House Stark. That 10,000 years comes from some part of the House history.

Yeah it does. It seems like the 10,000 years part might be more about Starks staking claim to winterfell or the north. Meanwhile the time may actually differ. Or maybe as suggested bb didn't really build it... But the castle is a later structure, raised on a place they took by conquest.

[Black Crow]

I get the feeling i'm missing something here for sure.

He wasn't only a Stark of Winterfell by day.He was always a Stark of Winterfell. Did that status somehow change at night?

There is a distinction being missed here. Here's the relevant bit of the passage again:

For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Leaving aside the way she deliberately ramps up the bedtime story at the end, she certainly identifies him as "a Stark of Winterfell" but she draws a clear distinction between him and his brother "the Stark of Winterfell" who brought him down. The latter was the Lord of Winterfell, he wasn't. There has been some debate before as to which was the elder brother but the most straightforward interpretation is that its analagous with Eddard Stark and his younger brother Benjen. Both are Starks of Winterfell, sons of Winterfell, but only Eddard is Lord of Winterfell

[Voice]

Considering Rickon hasn't even had a story so far, he's more likely intended to be an ironic inverse of a shaggydog story, i.e. a seemingly pointless character whose importance suddenly balloons right towards the end.

Yeah I don't think he'll be completely pointless. Davos is on a quest to retrieve him after all, and a time for wolves is nigh.

[Eira Seren]

FWIW, here is a compilation of references to "ten thousand years ago" ]

I could be wrong but something about the way you lay those out have me the impression that a major shift of some kind went on with the Starks, at the 8,000 year mark. As if stark identity solidified (this isn't quite right but) at that point in time. And the thing that did that is connected to the long night and to the "vanishing" of the others.

But I could be reading patterns that don't exist

[Black Crow]

If you want the entries from the World book here they are

Thanks for collating that one, taken together its a very useful revision of the timeline which to summarise now gives us

Arrival of the First Men 8-12,000 years ago; the the latter is probably closer because we're then told the Starks have ruled for 8,000 years, originally styling themselves Kings of Winter. In the "old" timeline this would might link their rise to the end of the Long Night, but no, the authorities with the single divergent view of The True History* very firmly put the end of the Long Night and the beginning of the Watch at 6,000 years ago [which is probably enough in itself for the learned Sam to doubt that king list], ie; all of 2,000 years after the Starks came to prominence.

You'll note also, incidentally, how the Alyssa Arryn story is brought forward by 2-4,000 years to avoid any suggestion that the Andals tooled up during the Long Night

*presumably to explain why we were originally told it was 8,000 years ago

[King Tyrion XX]

Let me explain my reasoning a bit more. And why I think the legends are more important than the dates.

WF cannot have been a stronghold prior to Bran's building of the Wall. The godswood it surrounds lies in the very swath of land lost during the Long Night. Bran is said to have built the Wall, and the Wall is said to have been built near the end of the Long Night. Which makes a lot of sense as it would be difficult to build a monument if the territory itself were still in enemy hands.

I am also of the mind that WF's crypts have a lot in common with a Singer's cave. Older levels being lower means that there must have been a reason to place bones of the dead that low. Bran sees bones across the floor of BR's cave, he tastes the blood of the sacrifice, and so I've concluded weirwoods eat/root in bones, and drink blood. You are what you eat, and it explains their bone-white wood and bark, and their blood-red leaves and sap.

So if the WF crypts were once a cave of Singers, and the Last Hero ventured out into the lands the armies of Men had lost, and if he found the Singers during the Long Night . . . the Winterfell godswood is the very one the Last Hero sought out in the Long Night to learn magics from the children of the forest in order to end the Long Night.

This also explains the need for there to always be a "Stark in Winterfell." Rather than welcoming lords to the mead hall, there must always be a Stark in that cave. Now, the crypts.

ETA: I'd rather find the bridge between the legends, and consolidate them into a greater, long-forgotten truth that explains the many versions told at the tit, than split them apart and complicate the story ;)

....are the COTF bound in the Cave of Skulls with iron?

[Eira Seren]

Anything is possible, but when large-scale shifts of earth occur, tsunamis are the result. I think folks are looking at the result and thinking it's the cause.

Children of the forest live underground and the seat of their religion is buried in the roots of trees. They wear earthenware as clothing. They sing the song of earth. I think their magics are limited to Earthworks alone.

This may also be connected to the idea of waking giants from the earth. I've speculated in the past that the giants may simply be seismic activity instigated by the vast network of weirwood roots beneath the landmass of Westeros. I believe Westeros is uniquely involved in the Song of Ice and Fire because it is built upon this vast, ancient network of weirwood roots.

I see what you're saying. It's just that jojen explains there's more to singer life ( or afterlife) than merely earth. Earth is the vessel. I think I've begun interpreting earth as a much more encompassing idea than dirt, rock and root. Am still thinking it thru.

[redrose]

Quick question. Is Winterfell warded and if it is, where the devil can you find it in the text?

[Voice]

I could be wrong but something about the way you lay those out have me the impression that a major shift of some kind went on with the Starks, at the 8,000 year mark. As if stark identity solidified (this isn't quite right but) at that point in time. And the thing that did that is connected to the long night and to the "vanishing" of the others.

But I could be reading patterns that don't exist

I totally agree. House Stark seem to consolidate in a way after the Long Night.

[Eira Seren]

I get the feeling i'm missing something here for sure.

He wasn't only a Stark of Winterfell by day.He was always a Stark of Winterfell. Did that status somehow change at night?

It sounds like he had a bit of a conflicting interest... By day, as a stark, he is supposed to be doing one thing... By night he's following his own agenda

[Voice]

....are the COTF bound in the Cave of Skulls with iron?

LOL maybe. I try to stick with clues in text, so I really couldn't say there :)

We know that a weirwood root throne can extend an average lifespan quite dramatically. And as Mathew pointed out upthread, that means a cotf greenseer might live a thousand years or more. That would definitely increase the likelihood of a living greenseer beneath the Winterfell crypts/godswood. Hell, maybe it's Benjen :)