Lord of the Onions Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Is the most popular and powerful religion in Westeros also the only one without any godly power or am I missing something? Let's first look at the relative importance of each religion we encounter in Westeros:- The Old Gods: highly popular in the north (wish represent a fraction of the whole population) but only there (except maybe a few houses in the Riverlands)- R'hllor: very much in minority, though growing pretty fast in few areas like the Wall and Dragonstone- The Drowned God: highly popular in the Iron Islands but only there- The God of Death: very scarce: Syrio and probably few FM that roam the land- The Faith: Almighty in the Reach, the Storm Lands, the Westernlands, represented everywhere from Iron Islands to the Wall, crowning kings, recruiting a large army, maybe in position to seize power. Now the founding events or main miracles of those religions:- The Old Gods: flooding of the arm of Dorm (wish reminds me a lot of Moses crossing of the Red Sea) and helping the Last Hero to end the LN.- R'hllor: AA, Lightbringer, saving humanity from the LN, not bad- The God of Death: The Doom and maybe starting the LN (but I won't go further on this tricky road, this is another matter imho)- The Drowned God: not sure about this one, something about slaying a sea dragon, its bones being the hall of the kingsmoot.- The Faith: ??? We also have some day-to-day magic, not as impressive as the miracles listed above, but it may very well convert unbelievers:- The Old Gods: whispering near the Heart Trees, wargs (very closely associated with the CotF and the Old Gods) plus we know first hand from Bran that the magic behind the WW network really works, but I guess at this point it's not very relevant concerning how the common lad perceives this religion. - R'hllor: resurrection, seeing things in the flames, glamour- The God of Death: the trick with the faces- The Drowned God: I can't think of any myself but there is this nice theory about Patch Face being a resurrected messenger of the Drowned God- The Faith: this story with Baelor and the snakes that everyone knows to be false? Even in our magic less world every religion goes with miracles, major or minor. So how comes that in a world with dragons, krakens, giant wolves, wargs, resurrection, shape-shifting assassins, nobody cares about the main religion being seemingly powerless? You might argue that The God of Death is the Stranger, therefor there is magic in the pantheon of the Faith. But what kind of shitty religion is this if the only god (or face of God) with powers is the one that will mess you up? One last thought: it might be an intended irony from GRRM's part. If it's the case, the name of this religion is totally appropriate: it is not faith if you know it's real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorVoid Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The Seven are said to be peaceful, everyday gods in Mothers interview to Davos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 One thing to keep in mind is that we have no proof that any of the priests claiming their power comes from their god(s) are necessarily right about it - they may even believe it, and yet can still be wrong. Magic existsPriests wielding magic existsPriests performing magic in the name of their gods existsNon-believers performing magic without calling upon any particular gods seems to existsGods... that's open for debate (and I'm pretty sure that's on purpose and won't change). Oh, and good point about the name of the Faith being very apt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 We have magicians: greenseers, shadowbinder some Red priests. But it is unclear if their personal magical powers are used to make people believing in Gods. Or if their powers are indeed granted by gods, thru prayers and invocations. I would believe there is a bit of both. But whatever, besides a few healers with limited powers, the Faith has not great magicians. The Faith arose in a time when there was no need to demonstrate great powers. Only the conviction of its supporters was needed. But compared to others, I would think it is pretty useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSovereignGrave Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 It was actually believed that back in Andalos the Seven walked among the Andals on Earth. Hugor of the Hill's crown was created from stars that the Father pulled from the sky, his wife was a young woman that the Maid brought to him and was made fertile by the Mother and bore him 44 sons as was foretold by the Crone, the Warrior have each of his sons strength at arms, and the Smith wrought a suit of iron plate for each as well. They also supposedly promised him a great Kingdom in a foreign land. So their are old legends and tales from the early times of the Faith. But you are right in that it doesn't seem like the Faith's god doesn't provide many miracles to its followers these days. My personal opinion is simply that it's because unlike the Old Gods, Drowned God, and R'hllor the faith doesn't have a tradition of magic in it priesthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Onions Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 One thing to keep in mind is that we have no proof that any of the priests claiming their power comes from their god(s) are necessarily right about it - they may even believe it, and yet can still be wrong. Magic exists Priests wielding magic exists Priests performing magic in the name of their gods exists Non-believers performing magic without calling upon any particular gods seems to exists Gods... that's open for debate (and I'm pretty sure that's on purpose and won't change). Oh, and good point about the name of the Faith being very apt. Indeed, magic or miracles could have nothing to do with gods as they are worshiped by the people in Westeros. But for this topic, what seems to matter is where magic or miracles are believed to come from. And thus far, we have three "red magicians", performing amazingly powerful magic (some would say miracles in the case of Thoros, as resurrection is the central piece around which Christianity is built) and giving full credit for it to their god. This make me wonder how can there still be so many followers of the Seven, and so few of the Red God in the Riverlands, with all those tails about a R'hllorian knight fighting for the weak and being resurrected by his god? But the matter of the priests is also a really good point you got here, cause they're utterly important in the matter of conversion. The Old Gods don't have any, maybe the closest thing would have been CotF converting first men but that was a very long time ago. And Drowned Priests don't seem to give a shit about anyone outside of the Iron Islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Well Davos seems to have made a deal with the mother or 1 of them. Beyond that I always thought that the faith represented Christianity, rich and corrupt but obviously no magic power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 There is one pretty good Seven intervention, for all that it is ambiguous. When Catelyn was praying in the village sept outside Storm's End, she pattern-recognized the faces of various people in the statue's faces, and the matching of people to aspect was pretty solid. Then Lysa had a moment in The Stranger. She shook it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beefheart Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 If Sandor is indeed alive and was saved by the brothers of the Quiet Isle, I'd call that a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I guess the Faith's magic could be associated with peace and healing. If Sandor is indeed the Gravedigger then I suppose you could argue that Sansa's prayer to the Mother was heard and came true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reginald blackfield Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 It was actually believed that back in Andalos the Seven walked among the Andals on Earth. Hugor of the Hill's crown was created from stars that the Father pulled from the sky, his wife was a young woman that the Maid brought to him and was made fertile by the Mother and bore him 44 sons as was foretold by the Crone, the Warrior have each of his sons strength at arms, and the Smith wrought a suit of iron plate for each as well. They also supposedly promised him a great Kingdom in a foreign land. So their are old legends and tales from the early times of the Faith. But you are right in that it doesn't seem like the Faith's god doesn't provide many miracles to its followers these days. My personal opinion is simply that it's because unlike the Old Gods, Drowned God, and R'hllor the faith doesn't have a tradition of magic in it priesthood.The drowned God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The drowned God? The Ironborn's god. Thoroughly depressing old sod, by all accounts - certainly nothing like the Norse gods, anyway, which is just fine by me as the Ironborn are at best caricature Norse raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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