BalerionTheCat

This is IMO one of the important things GRRM is telling: At some point, power always ends up in the wrong hands. Except maybe the Manderlies, no house of the North has armies enough to engage in significant warfare. Not the Starks. Ned had no more than 50 men to bring to KL.This is mostly because the North has no food (except the Manderlies) to sustain idle armies. Minor powers mean minor unrests. The Starks can keep the peace so long as a few houses respond to calls and provide a bit of assistance. In fine, the peace is guaranteed by Winter. Anyone unprepared will die when it comes. In another story GRRM said: Related to this question of power is Varys riddle. People have power mostly by the support given to them. Aerys endured because too many people were giving him their swords. The rebellion is the result of those like Rossart who supported him for personal reasons, not for the greater good. ETA: personal reasons, including an inflated sense of honor.

Yes. Tommen and her sister are real good kids... despite what their father, mother and brother were... and these royals inflated ego. But their fate is sealed by prophecy. They're the blood price of others. I'm sorry.

Of the main characters, I don't really care if they live or die or become something not of warm blood and flesh. They are essential to GRRM story and their fate will be defined by the story. I care for the story and the purpose of it. But there are plenty of secondary I wish they survive: Davos, Sam and Gilly, Mance, Tormund, Val... But if I chose one, it would Edmure and Roselin.

I agree. We try to reconstruct the chronology of events. Time wise, it's conceivable Rhaegar left Lyanna before Hightower reached him. On his own, because he would have something important to do elsewhere. And Hightower would reach the ToJ and decide he would serve best Aerys by staying there and wait for Lyanna's child. Not my best guess. But you're welcome to it...or to not guess at all. It's me, not happy if I'm not drawing lines between dots. But this is not absolutely important. It only serves to determine who these dead characters were. The bottom line is the PtwP was born there (if you agree on that). And that the fact escaped Robert and all these ignorant mighty lords who would smother him. Exactly. More likely for him to join Rhaegar's team, if he met him some place, and Rhaegar did the convincing. Whatever Rhaegar asked him, Hightower didn't see it as a dishonor or a breach of his vows, even if Aerys would be furious. The "certain circumstances" would be something really exceptional, something of utmost importance. Like protecting the PtwP who is the only hope of surviving the Long Night.

Not an evidence of: I never said Hightower admitted any fault or that he would do thing differently if he could. Even if it meant Rhaegar and Aerys death.(no, I'm not talking about your magic emails, back in time). Of course. He was at the ToJ (or was there later when Ned found him). But not at the RK. After. Read the A World of Ice and Fire reference. But doesn't much matter. Doesn't really matter who found who. They meet. You agree on that? Or you consider Rhaegar returned by himself to the RK while Hightower decided to stay at the ToJ, without ever talking to Rhaegar? Not excluded. But I don't think it matches Aerys attitude with Rhaegar. To put Hightower and the KG under his unrestricted authority, even if it seems to participate to the rebellion. This is I think the main disagreement I have with you. Plus the autonomy of a LC to determine how best to serve the interests of his king, not deferring to Rhaegar as soon as Aerys is not in sight. Not now and not before. I mean Hightower is the commander. And so he is expected to have autonomy and initiative and be able to act in the best interest of the king without having to return to him every hour to know what next he should do.

Why? No evidence, no support for that. A KG is not limited to, but is primarily, a king's bodyguard. When Aerys send a KG somewhere, he would expect him to return. No? The fact, is Hightower found Rhaegar and the missing KG. And if Hightower had then the mean to ask further instructions from Aerys, he knew for sure Aerys would not let him and 2 other KG stay and keep safe a pregnant rebel. And let Rhaegar return alone. He knew Aerys would be fucking displeased at his return if he let that happen. It is no good for a LC to act the idiot. Maybe Hightower was not there breaking the letter of his orders from Aerys, but he was breaking the spirit. And obey Aerys's orders was part of his vows.

Hightower, Jaime and probably all the KG but Dayne and Whent were in KL when Aerys burned Brandon & Co. Beside Aerys as it would nominally be. What let you think Hightower was elsewhere when Aerys gave him orders?

The usual way, just talking to him, face to face at the RK Who could send Hightower anywhere but Aerys. "Find" may mean: "just find where he is, do as you wish after, no need to come back and tell me". But the rebellion was turning bad for Aerys and he was seeking every possible assistance. No one could expect 3 of the best KG take their leave in the south... indefinitely. Of course not. Some hard evidences are needed. I said it before. I don't think Rhaegar or the KG would believed that. I don't think what they believed included Aerys to survive, as a man or a dragon.

No magical emails. Just Hightower order to end this fucking mess, take charge of his men, and deal with the rebellion. Most likely orders. No way to wiggle around this. Hightower is the commander, not a simple soldier, a dumb robot, only executing basic orders.

If Rhaegar was mad, then these three most puissant warriors had the same madness. Very unlikely. Therefore, all 3 and Rhaegar shared some knowledge GRRM so far keeps for himself. BTW, Aerys believed the Starks and Barathons were traitors. He didn't give a buck for them and still less for Lyanna. He was suspecting Rhaegar to complot with them. He would have specifically warned Hightower against Rhaegar dealing with the Starks.

You're assuming the KG were considering Rhaegar was Aerys' heir until Aerys death. And Jon became the legitimate heir (after Aegon death). Nothing Aerys said before dying changed that. This is the most straightforward explanation. OK.... But what if Aerys gave the KG the explicit order to come back and fight the rebellion? You're assuming Aerys commanded only Rhaegar. You're assuming Aerys didn't order the KG directly, thinking they would follow Rhaegar. This is IMO quite stretching. Aerys was their direct commander and he was displeased by what Rhaegar and 2 of his KG had done so far. No less than disappearing in nature after fucking with an abduction, a lord's daughter, and betrothed to another lord. Aerys was mad, but still. IMO so much straightforward is not enough.

They said things would have been different if they were at the Trident or King Landing. Not that it was a failure of their vows. Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. They didn't try to explain. Probably thought Ned would not understand, would not believe (Ned believed nothing of what Gared said either). Maybe this vow was one related to the new situation. Then why Hightower was still at the ToJ and died for Lyanna and her child? For what higher purpose?

You give your oaths one day to one guy who seems sane. You believe in the value of what you're doing. Then this guy becomes plainly unsuited. You don't understand why only a few are seeing that. The son of this guy, the heir, should be your new boss. Whatever, that's not your call. But the son tells you that something, irrelevant of your oaths, need to be done, or everyone will die. Need some evidence this is not madness too. But suppose you believe it. You just believe that is possible.Then what you're doing? What's the purpose of obeying the mad king if you believe everyone will be dead in 20 years? And no one will be there to care. Everything depends on how much Rhaegar (and Lyanna) were convincing. Not knowing, we can't judge.

Aerys was truly paranoiac after Duskendale (maybe he had a bit of it before). Varys came not long after, feeding Aerys' madness. Relaying or maybe creating rumours suiting his plans. Which were now evidently ruining the Targaryens and preparing for the Blackfyres return. Varys could have put suspicion on anyone, any of Aerys own children if it was advancing his plans.

Sauron was not evil before being corrupted by Morgoth, Saruman before being corrupted by the one ring. Boromir briefly too. Galadriel did not succumb to the ring, but she shares responsibility in the Noldor banishment. Thingol was an asshole... Not everyone is born full black or white, or do not evolve during life. But some become black without any excuse for it, without other purpose than doing ill, while others stay white beyond sainthood, whatever happen to them. D&D did it wrong. But I don't think everyone will think Dany evil by the end. GRRM has some cardboard evils like Ramsay or Euron, smart and conscientiously doing evil. But it's the exception while IMO it's rather the norm for Tolkien. It's the feel of the story anyway. Difficult with GRRM to point exactly when the things gone wrong.