Viking Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 In the House of the Undying we are told that Dany sees (quoted from the wiki page not the book) a dying prince with rubies flying from his armor whispering the name of a woman with his last breath Now at the time we are given to assume that it is Rhaegar breathing the name Lyanna, while we smugly think that Dany think's it is Rhaegar breathing the name Elia. We don't get a description of the Prince, only having it pointed out to us that he is wearing Rhaegar's armour from the Harrenhall tourney. Elsewhere, I think it is Barristan (this is from memory), observes that the armour he wore at Harrenhall was the armour he'd die in. The big black hole here is that there is a second candidate for this scene, we only know this by omission and it gets back up many books later in the White Tower scenes with Jamie (iirc). Prince Luwyn of Dorne was also at the Trident. We know nothing of how he died or who killed him, the same goes for Jonothor Darry, the other Kingsguard who seems to disappear completely at that time. We learn later that Prince Luwyn had a Paramour, presumably this Paramour is/was a woman. Is there any reason why this could not be the case? Have I missed something that makes this impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ? We know exactly how Lewyn died he was killed by Lyn Corbray with Lady Forlorne, and he did not have rubies on his breastplate either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReleaseTheHound Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lewyn wasn't a prince he had no titles as he was of the kingsguard... No no no it was Rhaegar he was a prince and is repeatedly referred to as just that many many times and he died on the TRIDENT sorry but there is no possible second meanings here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's Rhaegar. The rubies are the dead giveaway. Rhaegar's rubies are famous. Kingsguard armor doesn't have rubies or adornment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 ? We know exactly how Lewyn died he was killed by Lyn Corbray with Lady Forlorne, and he did not have rubies on his breastplate either. OK, that is precisely the kind of thing I was looking for. I'll go look that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yeah, it was Rhaegar. Like, if it wasn’t the author would have to handle it absolutely brilliantly for me to feel like I haven’t been lied to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yeah they renamed the ford the 'ruby ford' afterwards... apparently people still look for rubies in the area.. from an Arya chapter I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Witch King of Asshai Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lewyn forfeited his title when he joined the kingsguard. Also, I'm pretty sure Corbray killed him when he was injured (not sure about that though). Most importantly though, what would be the point of having such a minor, non-living character have a dedicated vision in the House of the Undying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 It was Rhaegar. No one else wore rubies on their armor. Plus GRRM confirmed that Rhaegar was cremated, so Rhaegar had to die at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lewyn forfeited his title when he joined the kingsguard. Also, I'm pretty sure Corbray killed him when he was injured (not sure about that though). Most importantly though, what would be the point of having such a minor, non-living character have a dedicated vision in the House of the Undying? No he didn’t. He forfeited his place in the succession, but he’s still a Prince of Dorne. He’s called “Prince” Lewyn almost every time he’s mentioned. “Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows … to ward the king with all my strength … to give my blood for his … I fought beside the White Bull and Prince Lewyn of Dorne … beside Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Before I served your father, I helped shield King Aerys, and his father Jaehaerys before him … three kings …” “Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.” “Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lewyn forfeited his title when he joined the kingsguard. Also, I'm pretty sure Corbray killed him when he was injured (not sure about that though). Most importantly though, what would be the point of having such a minor, non-living character have a dedicated vision in the House of the Undying? To act as a red herring, that's why. Why give Dorne Princes not lords or Kings? Why give Prince Lewyn a Paramour? and why spend valuable space on pointing out that a minor, non-living character had a Paramour in contradiction to his vows? If you are going to spend those paragraphs in the otherwise overwieldy and too long book you must be doing it for a reason. But, as was pointed out above, Lyn Corbray did him in with Lady Forlorne at the Trident. In this case obviously not thinking he was disguised as Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Witch King of Asshai Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Viking: I think that the Prince title is to do with the Rhoynar culture,as their rulers were called Prince, and the level of autonomy Dorne exercised when it joined the 7K voluntarily.In regard to the Paramour, you could be right, but I think its more likely that it was too allow for more interaction between Selmy and frog, prove a point, and build on Selmy's nostalgia, whats more it only took a few sentences to tell that story. Also, talking about valuable space, there are lots of bits in AFFC/ADWD that are longer and waste much more space for no reason, such as Brieene's travel guide to the riverlands. GRRM takes time to point out things without any overriding plot significance constantly, food, banners, who squired for who etc, as he builds his world. Also, 99% of the people reading the books would just be confused if this was a red herring, given his obscurity. And what's the point if it is a red herring? Everyone knows that Rhaegar died wearing Ruby armour on the trident, so even if this was a vision of Lewyn in kingsguard armour he was allowed to put adornments on, why put it in and waste space. Its also illogical for the HotU to show Dany visions of people who have never had any relation to her. In regard to the Prince title being forfeit, I got the Nights Watch oath confused with the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 In regard to the Prince title being forfeit, I got the Nights Watch oath confused with the Kingsguard. Even there, Janos Slynt still gets called “Lord” Slynt after he takes the Black. That might just be his ego, though. Maesters and Septons do seem to forfeit titles, no one calls Aemon “prince". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Lewyn forfeited his title when he joined the kingsguard. Also, I'm pretty sure Corbray killed him when he was injured (not sure about that though). Most importantly though, what would be the point of having such a minor, non-living character have a dedicated vision in the House of the Undying? It was a courtesy title, which he retained in the Kingsguard. Everyone referred to him as Prince Lewyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Just a sudden thought about the rubies (because I was re-reading a Davos chapter in aCoK): might there be any (symbolic) connection between the rubies on Rhaegar's armour and Melisandre's giant ruby necklace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Just a sudden thought about the rubies (because I was re-reading a Davos chapter in aCoK): might there be any (symbolic) connection between the rubies on Rhaegar's armour and Melisandre's giant ruby necklace? Yes, Glamours, the connection has been made before... hence my idea that Prince Luwyn might have been wearing Rhaegar's armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The only symbolic connection is rubies are red and red is for fireMel wears all read and Targs are associated with fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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