All she could see was snow...

[Hagorn Icebeard]

I made this post to raise discussion of what the snow Melisandre sees really is.

Remember in the good ol' times when there was no signal on TV? So it just looked like it was snowing.

When you think of that, it raises an interesting question. Is the glimpse of Azor Ahai Jon Snow, or doesn't Melisandre have any signal?

I think it is "The Great Other" of Mel's vision (Blood Raven) blocking the usage of Mel's fires and visions. Winter is knocking behind the door so it would make sense if BR has grown stronger and Mel weaker. It's like Blood Raven says: "You have no power here!".

What do you think? Does Melisandre see Azor Ahai reborn, or is it just signal connection error?

[TheLightning Lord]

she's looking for stannis but sees only snow because he's in a blizzard

but it's a high probability jon is actually aar, so it has a double meaning, and a little hint by the author

[Hagorn Icebeard]

That blizzard is so practical it must be true. *imagine Tormund's "HAR" here*

[Alex Storm]

I believe the actual quote used an uppercase S which pretty much tells us that she is seeing Jon Snow and not actual snow.

[bb1180]

I believe the actual quote used an uppercase S which pretty much tells us that she is seeing Jon Snow and not actual snow.

I'm almost certain that you're right. As the quote was said in her viewpoint, it was Snow, with an uppercase S.

It most likely refers to Jon. I suppose there's also an outside chance that it refers to Ramsay, which makes me want to barf.

[Hagorn Icebeard]

I believe the actual quote used an uppercase S which pretty much tells us that she is seeing Jon Snow and not actual snow.

I don't remember it was like that in finnish version. If that is true then you could say the case is closed. Melisandre is kind of stupid if she can't make that 1+1 connection.

[bb1180]

I don't remember it was like that in finnish version. If that is true then you could say the case is closed. Melisandre is kind of stupid if she can't make that 1+1 connection.

She's so wrapped up in her belief that Stannis is Azor Ahai that she can't see anything else.

The actual quote is in Chapter 31 of ADWD. I just verified it, it is indeed a capital S, as in 'Snow', rather than snow.

[The Blood of Winter]

Yes it is Jon Snow. Plus, I don't believe bloodraven could interfere with her visions. Mel says that her powers are stronger since she's been at the Wall. There is a lot of magical influence there

[Balerion the kitten]

That's a shame. I liked the idea about the great other or others power surpassing hers. But with the S not being an s.

Actually when i read it i read Snow as Jon Snow, not blizzard.

Cause i remember my eyes rolling to the back of my head thinking "Why, Jon. Jeez, out of everyone why him?".

[Lady Beefheart]

I got so annoyed reading this bit. I realize she's blinded by her own bias, but I was still reading the book wondering if R'hllor was going to grab her by her pasty white cheeks and forcefully turn her head toward Jon, like "THERE. THAT'S YOUR AZOR AHAI. DO YOU NEED ME TO FUCKING SPELL IT OUT IN FIRE ON YOUR TITS OR WHAT. DO I NEED TO ACT IT OUT FOR YOU WITH HAND PUPPETS? TAKE THE ME-DAMN HINT."

[JPJK79]

Well considering the snow she sees is actually capitalized Snow then I think it is pretty clear it is Jon who she is seeing just not realizing it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I made this post to raise discussion of what the snow Melisandre sees really is.

Remember in the good ol' times when there was no signal on TV? So it just looked like it was snowing.

When you think of that, it raises an interesting question. Is the glimpse of Azor Ahai Jon Snow, or doesn't Melisandre have any signal?

I think it is "The Great Other" of Mel's vision (Blood Raven) blocking the usage of Mel's fires and visions. Winter is knocking behind the door so it would make sense if BR has grown stronger and Mel weaker. It's like Blood Raven says: "You have no power here!".

What do you think? Does Melisandre see Azor Ahai reborn, or is it just signal connection error?

What the figment of The George's imagination known as Melisandre actually sees is not relevant. Since the allusion is literary rather than literal.

[Balerion the kitten]

I got so annoyed reading this bit. I realize she's blinded by her own bias, but I was still reading the book wondering if R'hllor was going to grab her by her pasty white cheeks and forcefully turn her head toward Jon, like "THERE. THAT'S YOUR AZOR AHAI. DO YOU NEED ME TO FUCKING SPELL IT OUT IN FIRE ON YOUR TITS OR WHAT. DO I NEED TO ACT IT OUT FOR YOU WITH HAND PUPPETS? TAKE THE ME-DAMN HINT."

Ha. Maybe next time Jon's face will appear in the flames with the text "THIS IS AZOR AHAI, NOT STANNIS HIM" and she'll think, "gotcha, Stannis needs to go further south".

[addicted to snow]

When Mel gets news of Stannis's Death (faked death), she will realize that the fires have been telling her that AA (Stannis she thinks) will be reborn into Jon's body... & she is right, AA will be reborn into Jon's body, just not in the way that Mel or the readers expect...

[Julia H.]

There are two quotes actually. One is in Melisandre's POV, with the capital S:

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

That is after we actually see some of her visions, in which Jon Snow occurs repeatedly: now as a man, now as a wolf, Jon Snow with skulls around him, she even hears his name whispered in the crackling of the fire. So that one is sure to refer to Jon Snow.

The other quote is with an s, but that's in Jon's POV, so he may misunderstand her. It is the day of Alys Karstark's wedding.

"You see fools in you fire, but no hint of Stannis?" (LOL)

"When I search for him, all I see is snow."

The same useless answer.

I think Melisandre is telling the truth here, but she doesn't really want Jon to understand what she means, which may be a sign that she is beginning to put two and two together (even if she is not totally convinced yet). Jon is irritated by the "useless answer".

But then Melisandre starts telling Jon that Stannis is Azor Ahai.

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt."

Is she still clinging to her belief? Or is she trying to provoke Jon into sharing some info with her (like "Wait a minute, I was also born amidst smoke and salt because...")?

"And what of Mance? Is he lost as well? What do your fires show?"

"The same, I fear. Only snow."

Snow. It was snowing heavily to the south, Jon knew.

Now that's interesting. Does she see snow or Snow when she looks for Mance? Why would she see Snow? Does she really see a blizzard after all, or is she trying to rectify a slip of the tongue before she reveals too much and too openly? Of course, Jon knows it is snowing, so no wonder he does not get the double meaning of Mel's words - if Mel is indeed deliberately speaking ambiguously. When she nexts speaks, this is what she says:

"I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now."

So Mel sees only snow in her fires, and then she admits that she sees Jon's face every time she looks into her fires. If that's not a hint, I don't know what is.

After that, they talk about Alys and Arya, and Mel admits that she makes mistakes:

"The vision was a true one. It was my reading that was false. I am as mortal as you, Jon Snow. All mortals err."

"Even lord commanders."

So Melisandre is thinking about the possibility of making mistakes and is telling Jon about it. Perhaps she is wondering whether she has made a mistake regarding Stannis as well, but is afraid that she might err again, so she does not share her doubts directly. Then we have Jon admitting that lord commanders err, too. What if this particular lord commander has just failed to understand what Mel is indirectly trying to communicate to him, i.e. snow = Snow?

[Gustaf Stark]

Melisandre can see everything but at the same time she sees nothing.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I believe the actual quote used an uppercase S which pretty much tells us that she is seeing Jon Snow and not actual snow.

:agree:

I don't remember it was like that in finnish version. If that is true then you could say the case is closed. Melisandre is kind of stupid if she can't make that 1+1 connection.

It was Snow. We had the same problem in Greek version iirc. I may be wrong because I haven't read the books in greek tho.

[bb1180]

Melisandre can see everything but at the same time she sees nothing.

I think she knows she's made a mistake, and that her visions are about Jon, not Stannis, but at this stage, I think she's also in denial.

[Ragnorak]

In trying to read Mel, I think it is helpful to look back to her initial introduction. Cressen is maester, a member of an order dedicated to knowledge and wisdom, who ends up playing the fool relative to the Mel who has, relatively speaking, the real knowledge, wisdom and power. Cressen starts off looking at the comet and fretting over all these omens he sees but chooses to deny them and his intuition as his having become as giddy as a child in his old age or his acting like an ignorant fieldhand. He is willfully ignoring the evidence he sees in favor of a preconceived and prejudicial worldview.

The reader knows Dany has just hatched dragons from stone. Cressen is wrong and Mel is right. The man sure in his knowledge and learning is the Fool and the superstitious witch is Wise. Cressen chooses to rely on the source of his knowledge as power and chooses to try and kill Mel with the Strangler. He is using the powers associated with his worldview to put forth his worldview with force-- and fails. It is the ancient, buried and forgotten knowledge that holds the real truth and the real power.

Fast forward to the Wall and Mel's POV. Mel seems to have taken on the role of Cressen and the Fool while Bloodraven assumes Mel's role from the prologue with Cressen. I think Cressen is the appropriate starting lens to use when viewing Mel.

[Julia H.]

In trying to read Mel, I think it is helpful to look back to her initial introduction. Cressen is maester, a member of an order dedicated to knowledge and wisdom, who ends up playing the fool relative to the Mel who has, relatively speaking, the real knowledge, wisdom and power. Cressen starts off looking at the comet and fretting over all these omens he sees but chooses to deny them and his intuition as his having become as giddy as a child in his old age or his acting like an ignorant fieldhand. He is willfully ignoring the evidence he sees in favor of a preconceived and prejudicial worldview.

The reader knows Dany has just hatched dragons from stone. Cressen is wrong and Mel is right. The man sure in his knowledge and learning is the Fool and the superstitious witch is Wise. Cressen chooses to rely on the source of his knowledge as power and chooses to try and kill Mel with the Strangler. He is using the powers associated with his worldview to put forth his worldview with force-- and fails. It is the ancient, buried and forgotten knowledge that holds the real truth and the real power.

Fast forward to the Wall and Mel's POV. Mel seems to have taken on the role of Cressen and the Fool while Bloodraven assumes Mel's role from the prologue with Cressen. I think Cressen is the appropriate starting lens to use when viewing Mel.

Fantastic observation, Ragnorak!

Now I wonder whether she will die defending her belief that Stannis is AA...

Even if she realizes that she has made a mistake, it must be difficult to admit it and come up with a new interpretation of her visions without undermining her own credibility.

By the way, this is not the only time Martin uses the snow = Snow equation in the novel. In Jon's first chapter in ADwD, Jon has a wolf dream:

"Snow," the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws.

The white wolf is running in a winter landscape, and the moon repeats the word snow several times before the wolf dream ends. This is the ending:

"Snow, snow, snow!" He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow's chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. "SNOW!" it screamed into his face.

Here, too, snow becomes Snow.