RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Does it bother anyone else that none of the series trademark "Shocking Deaths" Actually come in the battle scenes? I mean Ygritte dies in battle but just about every other significant death is more the result of some twist that was foreshadowed in advanced but designed to be totally shocking. If the reason the show and the books have so many major characters dying is to show that Westeros and Essos are dangerous lands and that war can claim anyone shouldn't some of these important deaths have actually come about due to... you know... The actual bloody battles that these characters always seem to survive even when they're dwarfs who can only move from one place to another by "waddling"? In book one, instead of having Ned get betrayed and witness all his men slaughtered but himself be taken captive and allowed him (And the audience) to think he might live only to throw some cruel twist and kill him when you don't expect it wouldn't it have been more shocking, and more believable if in that fight in the throne room the injured Ned tries to defend his men and is killed in the fight. This would make more sense for everyone involved, Cersie's character would totally have understood that if Ned died in that situation she could tell his bannermen and his son that they hadn't wanted his death and have a much more reasonable position to sue peace with. Joffrey was present, surely the little shit would have just been telling the guards to kill Ned anyway. The Lannisters really gain nothing from having him as a hostage since they already expect his two daughters to fill that role for them in the negotiations with the north and even wounded Ned seems like he would have fought to the death when his men were being butchered. This is just one example but it seems like these deaths that GRRM is so found of are really only the way they are to toy with the audience before a character they love is killed rather than to root the series in some sort of realism. P.S I feel the same way about Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Twyin Lannister, Oberyn Martell, Catelyn Etc etc... All of their deaths are designed to be shocking and to give the reader hope and then take it away rather than to instill in us readers a respect for how lethal battle and war really is. I almost never worry about a ASOIAF character when they get invloved in a battle scene because I basically know for a fact that they won't die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Chivalry? High-ranking commanders are generally not on the front lines, and are worth more captured than dead. I would argue that Oberyn was killed in battle. Just not an army battle/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Criston of House Shapper Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Yoren was killed in a battle. I'm sure the Battle of Meereen will change things, a couple of people will probably die there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Estellion Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Armour. Most of our important characters (Robb, Ned, Jaime, Tywin) wear the best armour to battle money can buy. Tyrion however has even better armour. Plot armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Chivalry? High-ranking commanders are generally not on the front lines, and are worth more captured than dead. I would argue that Oberyn was killed in battle. Just not an army battle/ Except all these characters were on the front lines at times and survived. As for Oberyn yes he dies in combat but he does in a situation were he has essentially already won and his death serves not to illustrate that combat is deadly but as a repercussion of Oberyns arrogance and impulsive personality. That's the general point I'm making here, these deaths don't happen suddenly in the heat of battle, they happen shockingly when you think the battle is over, if it was just once that Martin had a major character die in this sort of situation it would be one thing but he keeps on doing it to the point that you really stop feeling like the battle scenes matter because just about everything will be decided over dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Armor Bodyguards Preferred Ransom Like fifty noblemen that we know of have died. As for Ned, it made perfect sense for the Lannisters to capture him, I hope I don't have to tell you why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangII Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I understand what you're saying and I also found extremely odd that Tyrion (and even Pod) have survived so many battles and skirmishs when he is one of the worst fighters. At some other deaths I understand why it happened how it happen. Ned's death was more to show Joffrey insane rule; Rob's death was shown through Cat's POV who was never near the battlefield; I don't know what Jon's arc is going to turn up, by I think is important he is killed by his black brothers than wildings; Tywin was the liege Lord, he had heavy protection anytime he was near the action. And I'll say some important characthers (or at least secondary characthers) have died on a battlefield: Oberyn (that was a battle, no matter whan Arienne says), Yoren, and even some off stage: Rhaegar, Prince Lewin, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Daemon Blackfyre, Daemon Targaryen, Aemond Targaryen, along with many historical characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Yoren was killed in a battle. I'm sure the Battle of Meereen will change things, a couple of people will probably die there. Yoren is not a major character and there are no major characters taking part in the battle of Meereen other than Tyrion and you're not seriously suggesting that that's where his story will end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Yoren was killed in a battle. I'm sure the Battle of Meereen will change things, a couple of people will probably die there. Yoren is not a major character and there are no major characters taking part in the battle of Meereen other than Tyrion and you're not seriously suggesting that that's where his story will end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Yoren is not a major character and there are no major characters taking part in the battle of Meereen other than Tyrion and you're not seriously suggesting that that's where his story will end... No love for Barristan? I understand now, you only care about twenty major characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Victarion and Jorah are also serious characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 ArmorBodyguardsPreferred RansomLike fifty noblemen that we know of have died.As for Ned, it made perfect sense for the Lannisters to capture him, I hope I don't have to tell you why.It made even more sense for them to kill him in a manner where they could essentially blame on overzealous guardsmen who they could then send to the Starks for execution thus giving at least some small chance of peace with the north. You have to remember that Cersei is aware that Ned knows the truth of her offsprings parentage and he is far more of a risk to them alive. In my humble opinion this particular death and several others are designed to be as shocking as possible rather than as likely as possible given the narrative events that preceded them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Victarion and Jorah are also serious characters. Serious but not major, Victarion is a blow-in who almost everyone reading knows will play the role he was introduced for in the narrative and then die, no matter how he dies it will not be shocking in a narrative sense because there is not enough narrative weight on his character. As for Jorah, while he is a good character he is essentially an expositional tool for the Dany chapters, just because he's been around for five books and everyone will be sad if he dies does not really make him a major character. His story is a tangent that runs off Dany's story, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Does it bother anyone else that none of the series trademark "Shocking Deaths" Actually come in the battle scenes? I mean Ygritte dies in battle but just about every other significant death is more the result of some twist that was foreshadowed in advanced but designed to be totally shocking. If the reason the show and the books have so many major characters dying is to show that Westeros and Essos are dangerous lands and that war can claim anyone shouldn't some of these important deaths have actually come about due to... you know... The actual bloody battles that these characters always seem to survive even when they're dwarfs who can only move from one place to another by "waddling"? In book one, instead of having Ned get betrayed and witness all his men slaughtered but himself be taken captive and allowed him (And the audience) to think he might live only to throw some cruel twist and kill him when you don't expect it wouldn't it have been more shocking, and more believable if in that fight in the throne room the injured Ned tries to defend his men and is killed in the fight. This would make more sense for everyone involved, Cersie's character would totally have understood that if Ned died in that situation she could tell his bannermen and his son that they hadn't wanted his death and have a much more reasonable position to sue peace with. Joffrey was present, surely the little shit would have just been telling the guards to kill Ned anyway. The Lannisters really gain nothing from having him as a hostage since they already expect his two daughters to fill that role for them in the negotiations with the north and even wounded Ned seems like he would have fought to the death when his men were being butchered. This is just one example but it seems like these deaths that GRRM is so found of are really only the way they are to toy with the audience before a character they love is killed rather than to root the series in some sort of realism. P.S I feel the same way about Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Twyin Lannister, Oberyn Martell, Catelyn Etc etc... All of their deaths are designed to be shocking and to give the reader hope and then take it away rather than to instill in us readers a respect for how lethal battle and war really is. I almost never worry about a ASOIAF character when they get invloved in a battle scene because I basically know for a fact that they won't die. Fair enough--but if the idea is "shocking deaths"--would any death in battle be shocking? It's a battle. Pretty much guarantees someone dies. The fact that so many die out of battle seems to be the shocking part. And points to how dangerous life off the battlefield is--which seems to be a least one of the points Martin makes about the world he's created. But "toying with audience?" Yeah, that's possible--or just keeping us interested. Maybe 6 of one and half a dozen of the other as narrative techniques go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmenolas Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 It made even more sense for them to kill him in a manner where they could essentially blame on overzealous guardsmen who they could then send to the Starks for execution thus giving at least some small chance of peace with the north. They weren't planning on killing him though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight who says Nitpick Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Serious but not major, Victarion is a blow-in who almost everyone reading knows will play the role he was introduced for in the narrative and then die, no matter how he dies it will not be shocking in a narrative sense because there is not enough narrative weight on his character. As for Jorah, while he is a good character he is essentially an expositional tool for the Dany chapters, just because he's been around for five books and everyone will be sad if he dies does not really make him a major character. His story is a tangent that runs off Dany's story, nothing more. So Victarion and Jorah aren't major characters but Oberyn is? ETA: Barristan too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 No love for Barristan?I understand now, you only care about twenty major characters.I guess your definition of "Major character" differs substantially from my own, Barristan is one of my favourite characters but his role in the story revolves around Dany, as in he is a satellite character in her story regardless of how interesting and likable he may be in his own right. (If GRRM wrote a "Adventures of Barristan the Bold novella I'd be all over it thought) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Stannis also knew, one blabbing northmen isn't the worst thing on her mind. Cersei was legitimately going to send him to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenJosh Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 So Victarion and Jorah aren't major characters but Oberyn is? ETA: Barristan too Well, I suppose some hypocrisy on my part there. Oberyn and Victarion are probably equal in terms of their importance to the story but Oberyns death definitely falls into what I am talking about in a way that Victarion's probably wouldn't and compared to Jorah and Barristan Oberyn's story revolves much more around Oberyn, yes he is essentially a satellite character for Tyrion, but one with much more weight in the narrative of kings landing and the south of westeros in general than the stories of Jorah and Barristan is individuals has for essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 So you're admitting that you are willing to weigh evidence by how it supports you claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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