Illogical events in both show and books.

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

They agreed to the bethrothal. The actual wedding date is another matter entirely which I am fairly certain would have to be agreed upon by all parties, most of all the King.

Forgive me but I have more of problem with Littlefinger simply waiving off Sansa's marriage to Tyrion before the High Septon because she is still a virgin, "go have your son Ramsay wed her and bed her", than I do with Doran Martell not having his son, Trystane wed and bed already after 3 years of securing the agreement and the bride who also has to be flowered by now but instead is waiting for the permission of the new king, Tommen a Man-Child after the old king and hands (Tyrion and Tywin) agreed as well, in fact it was their doing in the firstplace to make sure they did not join the War of the 5 Kings on the side of their enemies.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

Davos specifically said "hundreds" of horses are dead, not thousands, and yes the food stores and the seige equipment, but all of that burns. A little oil and a torch, and it goes up in smoke.

I really don't see anything unrealistic about it.

 

Do you not realize how impossible your ''explanations'' are? First 20 men sneaking into a camp undetected is borderline impossible. There should be guards. Especially where provisions and horses are. And burning anything should immediately draw attention because of the smoke and fire. Horses are even harder to do. They are living beings who make a lot of noise. Try to kill even one and you will have a ton of horses running around, making a lot of noise. The entire camp shhould be up when they attempted to kill one horse. Not only they burned/killed everything they all escaped before anyone realized what was happening! How do 20 people kill hundred of horses before anyone notices it? The only way this could have worked is only if the entire Stannis camp was in a coma. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

Do you not realize how impossible your ''explanations'' are? First 20 men sneaking into a camp undetected is borderline impossible. There should be guards. Especially where provisions and horses are. And burning anything should immediately draw attention because of the smoke and fire. Horses are even harder to do. They are living beings who make a lot of noise. Try to kill even one and you will have a ton of horses running around, making a lot of noise. Not only they burned/kille everything they all escaped before anyone realized what was happening! How do 20 people kill hundred of horses before anyone notices it? The only way this could have worked is only if the entire Stannis camp was in a coma. 

One would think atleast one of those good men would have been wounded and captured. Then Stannis would interogate and find out Sansa married Ramsay and Jon finds out that way to move the story forward but on the perfection of the raid itself. No alarm horns, bells, anything as soon as riders were detected? No pickets on guard? Mel saw nothing in her flames? Not realistic, lazy writing to bring a plotline to an early and rushed and undeserving end. After 4 years of buildup. yeah, not realistic.

[Bobby b's bobby]

How did the Bolton's know where stannis was in show?

[Winter's Cold]

One would think atleast one of those good men would have been wounded and captured. Then Stannis would interogate and find out Sansa married Ramsay and Jon finds out that way to move the story forward but on the perfection of the raid itself. No alarm horns, bells, anything as soon as riders were detected? No pickets on guard? Mel saw nothing in her flames? Not realistic, lazy writing to bring a plotline to an early and rushed and undeserving end. After 4 years of buildup. yeah, not realistic.

 

The raiders infiltrated under the cover of a snow storm while the guards were low on morale and freezing to death. Sabotage would not be very difficult in that instance. It's no more galling than Melisandre's shadow monsters.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
The raiders infiltrated under the cover of a snow storm while the guards were low on morale and freezing to death. Sabotage would not be very difficult in that instance. It's no more galling than Melisandre's shadow monsters.

How do they infiltrate though? There would be guards at any entrance plus before them. Then how do you start fires so easily when people are freezing to death. Then how did none of the camp notice hundreds of horses on fire did the 20 good men drug everybody's coffee?. Don't defend 20 good men it's a bad part of a rushed illogical storyline and the ice zombies and Dragons exist so whatever argument is bad.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

 

The raiders infiltrated under the cover of a snow storm while the guards were low on morale and freezing to death. Sabotage would not be very difficult in that instance. It's no more galling than Melisandre's shadow monsters.

 

How do you sabotage horses? Trying to kill even one should wake the whole camp.

[A Ghost of Someone]

fire torches held by riders approaching in a snow storm could have been noticed. Also, Ramsay would have had to hit everything in one pass because once the fires were lit and the hooves pounded, hight alert would have been sounded. Also, Stannis strikes me as rather annal so there would be guards and somewhat defensive positions around the camp. Especially with his wife and daughter with him.

[Swamp Dweller]

Books: But it's mostly in the "Come on, you can't be so stupid!"-department like Robb marrying Jeyne because of his "What would my father do" and "I don't want a possible bastard to live like Jon" attitude. It seemed like heavy-handed railroading towards the Red Wedding to me. And then there was Dany trusting the crazy witch who was gangraped by the sworn swords of the men she told her to save. And then there were the Astapori slavers selling their entire insanely obedient army to a Targaryen conquerer making themselves totally defenseless in the process. 

 

 

Those Ghiscari don't seem too bright ay, maybe how the Valyrians wiped out their empire in the first place 

 

Show: The entirety of season 5. Tysha having never existed after three season of foreshadowing for the moment she gets important for. Tyrion going to his father's solar instead of rushing to safety. Jaime and Cersei not estranging inspite of all the setup being exactly there. Robb taking his wife to the Red Wedding to spite Frey even more. Oberyn literally living in a brothel. Arya not naming Tywin to Jaqen despite being in a far more comfortable situation to do so. The entire existance of Talisa... I could get many more if I tried, but I get bored...

 

Yet they decide to throw in 6 minutes of Tyrion ranting about squishing beetles or something. The Tysha revelation is what finally sends Tyrion into his homicidal rage so without it Tywin's murder just doesn't have the same effect.  It's bad enough when they skip important stuff due to time constraints but adding in that long beetle bit just seemed so contrived and out of place, they could have easily replaced it with dialogue closer to the books that added way more complexity and drama to the Lannister relationships.

 

And I hope the Jaime/Cersei fallout happens early in Season 6, they had several chances to portray this in earlier seasons (particuarly the decision to have Jaime and Cersei hook up in the White Tower, when in the books he turns down her advances and she calls him an angry cripple). Hopefully her confession regarding Lancel will finally send Jaime over the edge and they will get on with his redemption arc in the show.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Do you not realize how impossible your ''explanations'' are? First 20 men sneaking into a camp undetected is borderline impossible. There should be guards. Especially where provisions and horses are. And burning anything should immediately draw attention because of the smoke and fire. Horses are even harder to do. They are living beings who make a lot of noise. Try to kill even one and you will have a ton of horses running around, making a lot of noise. The entire camp shhould be up when they attempted to kill one horse. Not only they burned/killed everything they all escaped before anyone realized what was happening! How do 20 people kill hundred of horses before anyone notices it? The only way this could have worked is only if the entire Stannis camp was in a coma.

You're the one being illogical here. It's not like they would've walked in as a group of twenty. They likely snuck in one at a time at different locations, and then once in, just blended in with the men already there.

As for the horses, they didn't set the horses on fire, or kill them directly they set the stables on fire, which subsequently burned and killed the horses. Did you actually watch the scene? Because we specifically see the tents where the horses are going up in flames first, followed by a co-ordinated burning of several other tents/areas (food stores, seige weapons, etc...)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

How did the Bolton's know where stannis was in show?

There are these things... called scouts... most armies have them.

[Bobby b's bobby]

There are these things... called scouts... most armies have them.

you could've just said I don't know the show didn't say since stannis was stuck in a "terrible blizzard" (blizzard my arse I've seen worse springs in scotland) how did the Bolton's find him when he's still far away and if most armies use them then your excuse for the the 20 good men made it in is bs because stannis would have men at every entrance.

[El Guapo]

Forgive me but I have more of problem with Littlefinger simply waiving off Sansa's marriage to Tyrion before the High Septon because she is still a virgin, "go have your son Ramsay wed her and bed her", than I do with Doran Martell not having his son, Trystane wed and bed already after 3 years of securing the agreement and the bride who also has to be flowered by now but instead is waiting for the permission of the new king, Tommen a Man-Child after the old king and hands (Tyrion and Tywin) agreed as well, in fact it was their doing in the firstplace to make sure they did not join the War of the 5 Kings on the side of their enemies.

 

Well you are not going to get me to argue that it was logical that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was null and void because Littlefunger said so. I agree with you there.

 

But I think complaining that Trystane and Myrcella not being married yet is not logical  is completely off base.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

They destroyed all of food and folders, and do you really think an army store all of these stuff in one place and put horses in one single stable? don't you still think that is simple too stupid a plot too be believe?

Actually yes, medieval cavalry did in fact keep their horses in temporary stables/hitches for the harriers to be able to do their work. Now Lords and knights would have squires to tend their horses, so there was no need to group them, but for large scale cavalry troops like we saw in the show, yes absolutely.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

you could've just said I don't know the show didn't say since stannis was stuck in a "terrible blizzard" (blizzard my arse I've seen worse springs in scotland) how did the Bolton's find him when he's still far away and if most armies use them then your excuse for the the 20 good men made it in is bs because stannis would have men at every entrance.

Small groups (like scouts, or Ramsay's 20 man escort) can move through bad weather relatively easily. The issue with moving large armies through bad weather is all the support stuff for the army like the seige equipment, tents, food stores, etc...

And what on earth do you mean by "entrance", it wasn't a walled camp, it was a camp in an open field that appeared to stretch over a very large area. In other words it would be absolutely impossible to "have men at every entrance".

As for the scouts, it's easy to see a giant camp from miles away (the smoke from campfires alone can bee seen from even 10-15 miles away), whereas you have to physically lay eyes on individuals trying to infiltrate a camp. The two are not comparable.

Scouts are groups of men assigned to go out and see large armies approaching. Just like the Scout that Robb's army captured from the Lannisters in the first or second season. Every Army has those.

What Ramsey did is called guerrilla war-fare, and while less common during the medieval time period, it is certainly a standard military tactic that has been employed over thousands of years of warfare. The "hit-and-run raid" is certainly something we've seen throughout history as well.

It was made easier for Ramsey to pull off because Stannis's army were made up of sell-swords from warmer climates that aren't used to harsh northern snow storms. Many of the "guards" were likely more worried about staying warm than guarding what they were assigned to guard. The average soldier isn't going to think of a large army being attacked by a small group.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

How did the Bolton's know where stannis was in show?

 

So you say it's illogical that Little Finger wouldn't know who Ramsey was, but it's also illogical that the Bolton's would be aware of Stannis and his forces at Castle Black? D & D simply cannot win with some of you guys. 

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
So you say it's illogical that Little Finger wouldn't know who Ramsey was, but it's also illogical that the Bolton's would be aware of Stannis and his forces at Castle Black? D & D simply cannot win with some of you guys. 

Not at cb I'm talking about the field were 20 good men happened

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

The whole ridiculing of the 20 good men thing just seems childish to me. I'm a huge show fan and even when I was watching I was like "eh what? lol" then I got over it after 2 seconds and the first thought that came to my mind was: out of budget / time. The show is so massive that you kind of forgive these lapses, just like I forgave the fact that the wildling prisoners at Castle Black vanished into thin air, or the deserters in Stannis army.

 

Also regarding the 20 good men thing, we still don't know it was Ramsey that set the fires. There is a small chance that some magic was at play, if you recall in the scene Melisandre walks out of her tent and looks up in wonderment.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The whole ridiculing of the 20 good men thing just seems childish to me. I'm a huge show fan and even when I was watching I was like "eh what? lol" then I got over it after 2 seconds and the first thought that came to my mind was: out of budget / time. The show is so massive that you kind of forgive these lapses, just like I forgave the fact that the wildling prisoners at Castle Black vanished into thin air, or the deserters in Stannis army.
 
Also regarding the 20 good men thing, we still don't know it was Ramsey that set the fires. There is a small chance that some magic was at play, if you recall in the scene Melisandre walks out of her tent and looks up in wonderment.

Personally I think it's clear that it was Ramsey and his "20 good men", I just don't find it ridiculous, because it's a valid military tactic (employed over thousands of years of warfare) that would work well against a large sprawling army camp with no walls to keep out intruders.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

Personally I think it's clear that it was Ramsey and his "20 good men", I just don't find it ridiculous, because it's a valid military tactic (employed over thousands of years of warfare) that would work well against a large sprawling army camp with no walls to keep out intruders.

 

I think it's most likely Ramsey as well, and I don't see anything out of the ordinary with 20 men infiltrating an army camp and wreaking havoc, especially one where the men are divided, weak and starving. But I can see how people thought the overhead shot of random tents starting to light up without us seeing the men who lit the fuse as a bit farfetched. However I can be reasonable and come to the conclusion that it was most likely because of lack of budget / time, instead of being like "hahahaha D & D suck so bad!".