Hostages in ASOIAF, a major weakness in the series

[nmrch]

Does anyone else find the concept of hostage in the series to be extremely unrealistic and illogical? 

 

First of, why is there never an attempt to rescue hostages? I'm not even talking about ones that are held in jails but simple the hostages like Sansa in KL that aren't guarded that closely. With the exception of Ser Grandfather at the end of ADWD no one ever tries to get back their hostages and take back the leverage? How is it realistic for Tyrion to send 20 men to free Jamie from a dungeon on a mission that was almost successful and Robb does nothing to rescue Sansa and Arya? Surely we can all agree that freeing Jamie from the dungeons of Riverrun is way harder than smuggling a loosely guarded girl out of KL. If Littlefinger can get Sansa out of KL with everyone looking for her surely the Blackfish can come up with a plan to bring his niece back? 

 

Think of the additional leverage Robb would have if they deprived the crown of his hostages? Jamie would become a considerably more valuable prisoner, the only reason the Lannisters never worried about Jhim was because they held Sansa and "Arya". Think of all the headaches his sisters as hostages cost Robb. Cateyln frees Jamie, Karstarks kill the Lannisters kids and abandon Robb and Tywin is now free to start making big moves, i.e The Red Wedding. 

 

The second problem i have with hostages is why are they so loosely guarded. Take Theon, he's given pretty much unlimited freedom, if Balon really intended to make a move against the crown it would have been pretty easy for him to get his son back before anyone even noticed. And Sansa was guarded a little more tightly but she still was given way too much freedom considering how important she was.

 

What do you guys, tell me where i'm off because hostages as a concept have annoyed me since the beginning of the series. Its only at end with Ser Barristan that someone act in a logical manner.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

well you have to consider the difference between HOW theon was a hostage as compared to sansa. Theon was essentially given to the starks as insurance against him misbehaving again. which was very common in the real world. theon was raised in the stark household and would never have considered escaping as doing so would be an act of war essentially. once balon decides to go to war, sure he could have rescued his son, but by that point he might as well consider theon a stark.

as to sansa...she is a true hostage, but getting a stark loyalist into kl and into the red keep and then getting sansa out of the red keep and out of kl is not, I think, as easy as you seem to think. i don't think she was necessarily free to wander the city, but was allowed relatively free reign within a well fortified and guarded castle.

[Nuncle Karstark]

Does anyone else find the concept of hostage in the series to be extremely unrealistic and illogical? 
 
First of, why is there never an attempt to rescue hostages? I'm not even talking about ones that are held in jails but simple the hostages like Sansa in KL that aren't guarded that closely. With the exception of Ser Grandfather at the end of ADWD no one ever tries to get back their hostages and take back the leverage? How is it realistic for Tyrion to send 20 men to free Jamie from a dungeon on a mission that was almost successful and Robb does nothing to rescue Sansa and Arya? Surely we can all agree that freeing Jamie from the dungeons of Riverrun is way harder than smuggling a loosely guarded girl out of KL. If Littlefinger can get Sansa out of KL with everyone looking for her surely the Blackfish can come up with a plan to bring his niece back? 
 
Think of the additional leverage Robb would have if they deprived the crown of his hostages? Jamie would become a considerably more valuable prisoner, the only reason the Lannisters never worried about Jhim was because they held Sansa and "Arya". Think of all the headaches his sisters as hostages cost Robb. Cateyln frees Jamie, Karstarks kill the Lannisters kids and abandon Robb and Tywin is now free to start making big moves, i.e The Red Wedding. 
 
The second problem i have with hostages is why are they so loosely guarded. Take Theon, he's given pretty much unlimited freedom, if Balon really intended to make a move against the crown it would have been pretty easy for him to get his son back before anyone even noticed. And Sansa was guarded a little more tightly but she still was given way too much freedom considering how important she was.
 
What do you guys, tell me where i'm off because hostages as a concept have annoyed me since the beginning of the series. Its only at end with Ser Barristan that someone act in a logical manner.

You would lose a lot of respect if you violated the rules of war. This apparently entails not rescueing. Tyrion doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about honor, so that explains his actions.

[nmrch]

You would lose a lot of respect if you violated the rules of war. This apparently entails not rescueing. Tyrion doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about honor, so that explains his actions.

 

Tyrion disguised rescuers as envoys, that was dishonorable because he abused the protection that is typically granted to envoys. There's no reason to think getting back your hostages that were forcefully taken to begin with(like Sansa) would be dishonorable, its not like Robb(or Ned) surrendered Sansa as part of a deal.

 

Moreover, Ser Barristen launches a little bit of a rescue mission to get back Danny's hostages from the Yunkai camp, i mean this is Ser Barristan we're talking about, a man who doesn't take a breath without thinking about honor. 

[GuardstheRealmsofMen]

I think the issue is you are thinking of hostages as tactical pieces, not people you care about.

 

Yes, it is probably possible to smuggle someone out of a city. However if Sansa had been caught trying to escape King's Landing, she would no longer be allowed to be a very poorly treated guest. Instead she would be thrown in the Black Cells, or simple killed. Littlefinger was able to do it because he does view her as a political pawn (at least at that point.) Robb and Cat wouldn't want to risk her safety. 

 

Hostages are only useful as long as they make people act irrational. 

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

I think the issue is you are thinking of hostages as tactical pieces, not people you care about.
 
Yes, it is probably possible to smuggle someone out of a city. However if Sansa had been caught trying to escape King's Landing, she would no longer be allowed to be a very poorly treated guest. Instead she would be thrown in the Black Cells, or simple killed. Littlefinger was able to do it because he does view her as a political pawn (at least at that point.) Robb and Cat wouldn't want to risk her safety. 
 
Hostages are only useful as long as they make people act irrational. 

I agree 100%

[Nuncle Stark]

Yeah, hostage situations can be tricky. Fuedal societies have honor codes too so a lot of the times if you are a well treated hostage you are not supposed to try to escape or send people to rescue them, it's all about ransom. If you start promoting violence maybe your prisoners get killed for being too much trouble, and in future battles. Also Sansa was mostly in the Red Keep, which is a castle within a castle, so she is very secure. To get her out of the keep would be hard, then through the city harder, unless you knew the secret tunnels. Ser Dontos did because of Baelish, but Robb probably wouldn't know stuff like that or have contacts that do.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Does anyone else find the concept of hostage in the series to be extremely unrealistic and illogical? 

 

First of, why is there never an attempt to rescue hostages? I'm not even talking about ones that are held in jails but simple the hostages like Sansa in KL that aren't guarded that closely. With the exception of Ser Grandfather at the end of ADWD no one ever tries to get back their hostages and take back the leverage? How is it realistic for Tyrion to send 20 men to free Jamie from a dungeon on a mission that was almost successful and Robb does nothing to rescue Sansa and Arya?

 

You see you're contradicting yourself, right?

[Whittyroar]

I think the issue is you are thinking of hostages as tactical pieces, not people you care about.

 

Yes, it is probably possible to smuggle someone out of a city. However if Sansa had been caught trying to escape King's Landing, she would no longer be allowed to be a very poorly treated guest. Instead she would be thrown in the Black Cells, or simple killed. Littlefinger was able to do it because he does view her as a political pawn (at least at that point.) Robb and Cat wouldn't want to risk her safety. 

 

Hostages are only useful as long as they make people act irrational. 

 

I totally agree with this. Well said! 

[1000th Lord Commander]

Theon, Sansa and Jamie are three fairly different senarios when it comes to Hostages.

 

Think of the Iron isles at the end of Greyjoy's first rebellion. Castles smashed, armies and fleets scattered and destroyed, many notable lords and heirs killed. Balon has no oppourtunity to rise again, and thus no impetus to try and rescue Theon. As time wears on and the Iron Isles slowly rebuild, he would think more upon his daughter, and less of the younger son that went away. By the time the Iron Isles was ready once more for war, Theon would be a man grown and be released anyway.

 

Sansa has run of the castle, but is still a hostage. Robb doesn't rescue her for multiple reasons.

 

1. He's honourable, like his father. - and as such wouldn't think of attempting a rescue in the way Tyrion does. For Robb, although his sisters are valuable, he tries to get them back by beating the Lannisters in the field, which is more honourable than a grab and run.

2. Robb is young - And as such doesn't have much of the respect of his own bannermen. If he is seen pininning for his sisters, he is seen as a weakling and a craven, and not worthy of command.

3. Robb thinks that they hold Arya, too - At least at first. which multiplies the problems in a successful rescue attempt. From what he knows, Sansa is in the castle, around at court, and visible. He knows Arya was last in KL, and concievably is also a hostage. Arya could be in the black cells, a tower cell, or even moved to Rosby or Stokeworth as a guarantee against a rescue attempt on Sansa. Sansa gets rescued, the Lannister produce Arya, or at least Arya's head.

4. He has a expectation that Sansa will be well treated. As a highborn lady, the expectation is that regardless of the war going on, that Sansa will be well treated, fed, and not subject to the abuse that Jofferey puts her to. Once the Lannisters are beaten in battle, he can get them back by taking the city.

 

Jamie is another kettle of fish entirely. As a annointed Knight, who has been captured in battle, he may yield and expect to be randsomed, or at least exchanged for other prisoners. Part of that contract is that Jamie will not try to escape, which he breaks by paticipating in the escape attempt. But tyrion knows that the Lannisters have no piece valuable enough to trade for Jamie, which is why he makes the attempt

[lancerman]

1. "why is there never an attempt to rescue hostages". There was an attempt to rescue Jamie.

2. Sansa while free to roam around was in the Red Keep surrounded by Lannister guards who always kept an eye on her and were spying on her. Only a few times in the godswoods was she truly alone. And even so no Stark loyalists were going to break into the Red Keep and actually realistically smuggle Sansa out. The Red Keep and KL are more heavily fortified than Riverrun where most of it's power is out fighting Lannister's all over the place. Also Jamie was always in one place. Sansa could be anywhere and you don't know who is watching her. It's a much harder proposition to get her out.

3. With Theon, Balon already lost. Everyone aligned with Robert (the North, Riverrun, Vale, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, etc) would have taken it as an act of war if Theon was taken back. Theon was a peace offering designed to keep the Iron Islands in check. Balon made his move and lost, and over the next decade or so Robert solidified his rule. It was a fools errand to attempt to save Theon.

[Hol Horse]

Major weakness is a bold statement. One that I disagree with.