Question about Arianne and Willas

[purple-eyes]

These two are quite interesting figures. 

Both of them were heirs to a major house. 

Arianne once tried to go get married with Willas but was stopped. 

If they got married, one of them had to give up the heir, right?

Either Arianne marry into Reach or Willas comes to Dorne as a consort.

I can not imagine the combination of Dorne and Reach to a new kingdom. 

 

I have a feeling that Arianne may end up marrying Willas after everything (If Sansa did not marry Willas). 

She may marry Aegon firstly. but after Aegon died, there is a possibility that these two were together. 

 

And, is Willas gay?

He is pretty old for marriage but remained single. he is crippled but he seems quite popular and he is the heir. 

I am sure he would receive a lot of invitations for marriage. 

He had something going on with Red Viper and this guy is known for his taste. 

would this become part of the motivation for Willas to revenge for Red Viper and support Aegon and Dorne?

 

[ConfusedCounselor]

These two are quite interesting figures. 

Both of them were heirs to a major house. 

Arianne once tried to go get married with Willas but was stopped. 

If they got married, one of them had to give up the heir, right?

Either Arianne marry into Reach or Willas comes to Dorne as a consort.

I can not imagine the combination of Dorne and Reach to a new kingdom.

 

 

 

Probably just have both of them as officially independent rulers of their kingdoms. They would of course be expected to work together, but the kingdoms would remain separate.

In terms of succession: hope for a girl first. She gets Dorne, first born male gets the Reach. If a boy comes first, you'll have to give one of them to someone else, the next kid/boy.

 

To be honest, the marrying of Willas to either Sansa or Arianne is a bit weird. You'd think you would want to marry the son who wouldn't already inherent High Garden to either of them.  

 

And, is Willas gay?

He is pretty old for marriage but remained single. he is crippled but he seems quite popular and he is the heir. 

I am sure he would receive a lot of invitations for marriage. 

He had something going on with Red Viper and this guy is known for his taste. 

would this become part of the motivation for Willas to revenge for Red Viper and support Aegon and Dorne?

 

 

I'm assuming the Tyrells wanted to keep him single for some reason. Being gay isn't really a good reason not to get married, for most people. They are quite ambitious, so maybe they thought he might make a good bargaining chip somewhere in the future. Never know when having Lady Highgarden as an offer could come in handy... 

 

I do not think the Tyrells will jump the Tommen ship until they are sure it is going down. 

[purple-eyes]

 

To be honest, the marrying of Willas to either Sansa or Arianne is a bit weird. You'd think you would want to marry the son who wouldn't already inherent High Garden to either of them.  

 

 

 

Exactly, I already feel that the reasonable option for Arianne would be a second son from a major house. Not the heir like Willas. 

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Interesting theory, I like it. Not sure how plausible it all is though (I admit, I want it to happen). I think the Tyrell's not marrying Willas off yet is just to do with them holding out for the best possible marriage for him, probably not wanting to commit to marrying their heir off until they are absolutely sure of the best match. And with the country at war, it could potentially be disastrous for them to marry him to the wrong person.
However, his alledged positive relationship with the red viper is certainly interesting given everything. I don't think we can say for sure until we've met Willas, but I like the idea of him and Arianne getting married. Can't think of a good reason to rule it out personally (except of course if Arianne marries Aegon, which I admit seems the most likely option, but I don't see it lasting).

[WolfgangII]

Interesting. How does inheritance and lordship works when the two spouses are lords on their own? Let's review Doran's plan. Arienne was set to marry Viserys. He would be king and Arienne would be queen, but she would lose Dorne, which will be given to Quentyn. So, neither Viserys nor Arienne (the Crown) will be in direct control of Dorne.

 

So, if Arienne marry Willas, I suspect something similar. And given that only the Dornish value woman high enough to be lords on their own, I suspect Arienne will have to cede and renounce to her lordship. She will be Lady of Highgarden, and Dorne will be given to Quentyn.

 

Now, completely impossible, but imagine Arienne marry Willas, Quentyn marry Daenarys and Trystene marry Shireen or Myrcella. Now you have the three Martell children at the Iron Throne, Highgarden and allied with either the Storm's End or Casterly Rock (and obviously Sunspear). The whole south is in direct Dornish control or their friends. One generation further and the Prince(ses) of Dorne, Lord of the Reach, Westerlands/Stormlands and the King of the Iron Throne are direct cousins.

[purple-eyes]

Interesting. How does inheritance and lordship works when the two spouses are lords on their own? Let's review Doran's plan. Arienne was set to marry Viserys. He would be king and Arienne would be queen, but she would lose Dorne, which will be given to Quentyn. So, neither Viserys nor Arienne (the Crown) will be in direct control of Dorne.

 

So, if Arienne marry Willas, I suspect something similar. And given that only the Dornish value woman high enough to be lords on their own, I suspect Arienne will have to cede and renounce to her lordship. She will be Lady of Highgarden, and Dorne will be given to Quentyn.

 

 

This is why I am confused why Arianne wanted to marry Willas. 

She apparently wanted a powerful husband to support her claim to the Dorne over her brother. 

But somebody important like Willas would require her to stay in Highgraden, I guess. 

[WolfgangII]

 

This is why I am confused why Arianne wanted to marry Willas. 

She apparently wanted a powerful husband to support her claim to the Dorne over her brother. 

But somebody important like Willas would require her to stay in Highgraden, I guess. 

Maybe she didn't think it through, or maybe GRRM didn't think it through (blasphemy!).

 

Yes, its confusing. I don't see Willas (or any heir) willing to sacrifice their lordship in order to be consort Prince. But I'm sure some precedent must exist in-universe. Let's imagine what will happen if Sansa (which is considered by many the only living Stark) marry the Lord of the Vale. Does he suddenly becomes Lord of Winterfell? Can someone enlightme? Because this is becoming a new obsession (just like the line of sucession of Storm's End).

[purple-eyes]

Maybe she didn't think it through, or maybe GRRM didn't think it through (blasphemy!).

 

Yes, its confusing. I don't see Willas (or any heir) willing to sacrifice their lordship in order to be consort Prince. But I'm sure some precedent must exist in-universe. Let's imagine what will happen if Sansa (which is considered by many the only living Stark) marry the Lord of the Vale. Does he suddenly becomes Lord of Winterfell? Can someone enlightme? Because this is becoming a new obsession (just like the line of sucession of Storm's End).

 

I guess she would be lady of Winterfell and after they had more children, maybe one of them would inherit Winterfell through her. 

Is it possible to combine the two realms together by this marrige and make a larger kingdom?

Like a united kingdom with one lord and one lady?

[WolfgangII]

 

I guess she would be lady of Winterfell and after they had more children, maybe one of them would inherit Winterfell through her. 

Is it possible to combine the two realms together by this marrige and make a larger kingdom?

Like a united kingdom with one lord and one lady?

 

Exactly my question. I imagine (mere speculation) that a lot of lords (high and low) have married to each other. In some historical (in-universe) cases, the kingdoms (or lands) have combined. (The Starks acquire a lot of land through the marriage with their defeated foes' daughters). But we still have the same strongholds and kingdoms for millenials, why is this "united kingdoms" not happening very often?

 

I think the case of Coldmoat can help us, for that I'm going to use The Sworn Sword story from D&E and the wiki. Coldmoat was originally built by House Osgrey. After the defeat of the Blackfyre army on the Battle of the Redgrass Field, Ser Eustace Osgrey lost some strongholds, incluiding Coldmoat, which was granted to House Webber. We know that Lady Rohanne Webber married Ser Eustace, he become Lord of Coldmoat, restoring the lands of House Osgrey. So, lordships combined.

 

The curios thing is that later, I assume after Ser Eustace's death, Lady Webber married Gerion Lannister of Casterly Rock. But, Coldmoat and the rest of possessions under House Osgrey weren't combined with the Lannister's ones. (At least that I know, please correct me if I'm wrong). Did Lady Webber lost possesion of Coldmoat after Eustace's death or after she marry Gerion? And why?

[purple-eyes]

 

Exactly my question. I imagine (mere speculation) that a lot of lords (high and low) have married to each other. In some historical (in-universe) cases, the kingdoms (or lands) have combined. (The Starks acquire a lot of land through the marriage with their defeated foes' daughters). But we still have the same strongholds and kingdoms for millenials, why is this "united kingdoms" not happening very often?

 

 

Not sure about all your questions. But this marriage-combination can only happen when the woman is the only remaining heir of the house. 

This is kind of hard because not only she can not have any siblings, but also can not have any other male relatives. 

I think this will be quite rare. 

[WolfgangII]

 

Not sure about all your questions. But this marriage-combination can only happen when the woman is the only remaining heir of the house. 

This is kind of hard because not only she can not have any siblings, but also can not have any other male relatives. 

I think this will be quite rare. 

 

You're right, that reduces the possibilities. What we know, from Coldmoat's case, is that when two lords marry each other, they could combined their lands.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

These two are quite interesting figures. 

Both of them were heirs to a major house. 

Arianne once tried to go get married with Willas but was stopped. 

If they got married, one of them had to give up the heir, right?

Either Arianne marry into Reach or Willas comes to Dorne as a consort.

I can not imagine the combination of Dorne and Reach to a new kingdom. 

 

I have a feeling that Arianne may end up marrying Willas after everything (If Sansa did not marry Willas). 

She may marry Aegon firstly. but after Aegon died, there is a possibility that these two were together. 

 

And, is Willas gay?

He is pretty old for marriage but remained single. he is crippled but he seems quite popular and he is the heir. 

I am sure he would receive a lot of invitations for marriage. 

He had something going on with Red Viper and this guy is known for his taste. 

would this become part of the motivation for Willas to revenge for Red Viper and support Aegon and Dorne?

 

We know nothing about Willas' sexual preferences.

 

If he married Arianne, yes he would go to Dorne and be her consort.  She outranks him so he has to give way.  Then Highgarden would pass to Garlan and his lady.

 

I don't expect Arianne to survive the series, but if she does, she could certainly do worse than the future Lord Tyrell.  GRRM has said we will be meeting Willas, so it will be fun to see what exactly that will entail.

 

I actually have this completely non-text-supported ship for Willas Tyrell and Asha Greyjoy.  I think together they would make quite a team. 

 

I think Willas would support Aegon/Dorne for a number of reasons, one being Oberyn's death and another being Margaery's.  If his baby sister dies because of Cersei Lannister, he will switch to Aegon so fast it'll almost look like time-traveling.  

[purple-eyes]

 

You're right, that reduces the possibilities. What we know, from Coldmoat's case, is that when two lords marry each other, they could combined their lands.

 

Definitely. They can certainly make a united realm by marriage.

Dorne and IT did that due to the marriage, right?

[WolfgangII]

 

Definitely. They can certainly make a united realm by marriage.

Dorne and IT did that due to the marriage, right?

 

Yes, basically they did. Good spot. I can't believe I missed that. Althought we still have Kings in the Iron Throne AND Princes(es) in Dorne.

 

Let's look another case. If Brienne of Tarth (which we know is only heir of Evenfall) marry some lord, what will happen to her lordship?

[purple-eyes]

 
Yes, basically they did. Good spot. I can't believe I missed that. Althought we still have Kings in the Iron Throne AND Princes(es) in Dorne.
 
Let's look another case. If Brienne of Tarth (which we know is only heir of Evenfall) marry some lord, what will happen to her lordship?

If her husband is a powerful lord then tarth was included into his lands.
If her husband did not have land, then they will stay in tarth I guess.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is why I am confused why Arianne wanted to marry Willas. 
She apparently wanted a powerful husband to support her claim to the Dorne over her brother. 
But somebody important like Willas would require her to stay in Highgraden, I guess.

They don't need to live together. Stannis saw Selyse like once a year with the purpose of trying to make children. They can visit each other every certain time to make heirs.

The biggest problem here would be the heir. Their first son, would be heir of Dorne or the Reach? Are those going to be one single land and the kid will rule both?

[purple-eyes]

They don't need to live together. Stannis saw Selyse like once a year with the purpose of trying to make children. They can visit each other every certain time to make heirs.

The biggest problem here would be the heir. Their first son, would be heir of Dorne or the Reach? Are those going to be one single land and the kid will rule both?

They better to have a girl firstly. She can take dorne and next son can get reach.
But if they have only one son, then this precious baby would take both realm as one I think.
Like a United Kingdom of dorne and reach.

[WolfgangII]

If her husband is a powerful lord then tarth was included into his lands.
If her husband did not have land, then they will stay in tarth I guess.

 

About the former, yes. The landless lord will move to the landed Lord. (i.e. Sigorn of Thenn moving with Alys Karstark).

 

About the latter, I don't think that is the rule. Its not only too arbitrary, but in the case of Rohanne Webber, the Lannister didn't get Coldmoat. Maybe because it wasn't hers to give, but its strange if she was still Lady of Coldmoat.

 

 

The biggest problem here would be the heir. Their first son, would be heir of Dorne or the Reach? Are those going to be one single land and the kid will rule both?

 

By all laws and customs, the first son of the Lord of Highgarden should inherit it, the same for Dorne (adding that in this case, a daughter is equal to the man). Assuming you cannot reach an agreement to keep both the Reach and Dorne separated, how do yo avoid that the first trueborn son of Wyllas and Arienna did not inherit Highgarden and Sunspear? Will he have two titles, á la Littlefinger (obviously he is only lord regent of the Vale)?

 

Another precedent we can used could be House Hoare. Althought they gain the Riverlands by right of Conquest, they keep both the Iron Islands and the Riverlands as one kingdom. Or I am wrong?

[purple-eyes]

We know nothing about Willas' sexual preferences.
 
If he married Arianne, yes he would go to Dorne and be her consort.  She outranks him so he has to give way.  Then Highgarden would pass to Garlan and his lady.
 
I don't expect Arianne to survive the series, but if she does, she could certainly do worse than the future Lord Tyrell.  GRRM has said we will be meeting Willas, so it will be fun to see what exactly that will entail.
 
I actually have this completely non-text-supported ship for Willas Tyrell and Asha Greyjoy.  I think together they would make quite a team. 
 
I think Willas would support Aegon/Dorne for a number of reasons, one being Oberyn's death and another being Margaery's.  If his baby sister dies because of Cersei Lannister, he will switch to Aegon so fast it'll almost look like time-traveling.  

Why arianne outrank Willas? Because the title of princess?
I thought those overlords were equal.

[falcotron]

Interesting. How does inheritance and lordship works when the two spouses are lords on their own?

My guess is that there just isn't enough precedent to provide an answer here. Nobody in-universe would know what "the law" says, because the law doesn't say anything, and it would be down to what they try to get away with, and whether they succeed.

Also, remember that every case of a succession dispute that we'd seen handled by a liege or Great Council was decided on pragmatic grounds, not legalistic ones: Bran was encouraged to think of what would make the lords happy when dealing with Hornwood; Daemon's claim to his wife's seat was denied on the grounds of "I hate you, and so does everyone else in the Vale"; Egg became king because nobody wanted a feebleminded girl or a possibly insane small boy; etc.

So:

• If Arianne decided to abdicate Dorne to be the Lady of Highgarden (or Willas abdicated to become Prince Consort of Dorne, but that seems less likely), nobody would question it, so there wouldn't be a succession issue.
• If they declared they were going to permanently unite the two realms, they'd almost certainly be challenged by someone, the king would hear the case, and he'd probably rule against it--not because the law says you can't do that, but because it's obviously against the best interests of the Seven Kingdoms to allow it.
• If they decided to rule as a personal union, whether strong or weak,¹ dividing the titles among two heirs, they might get away with that, but it's hard to guess. The political situation at the time would make a big difference. But if personal unions don't seem to be a tradition in Westeros as they were in Europe, what reason would anyone have to trust that the titles actually will be divided and inherited separately?²

We may get to see this question discussed in Sansa's chapters in TWoW. After all, Littlefinger is clearly trying to create a personal union in the Sansa-Harry marriage,³ and seems to be planning to use that to conquer or otherwise take over the North, and he's likely to explain his plan in more detail to Sansa. (We may also get some discussion of what's different people expect to happen with Ramsay as Lord of Winterfell and heir of the Dreadfort if he outlives Roose.)

One last thing: In Europe, most kings and dukes were also counts of other places; in Westeros, nobody is ever lord of two seats. And we don't know how that works out.⁴ So clearly, there's something important about their traditions that's different from any real-world country, and we don't know what that is, which makes it even harder to guess what would happen in hypothetical cases.

¹ In other words, whether they're both co-sovereigns over both realms, or whether each is consort in the other's realm.

² There could be answers to this--maybe they have a tradition of non-repudiable wills sealed by the king or something. But there don't seem to be any answers that we've heard of in-story or that seem obviously necessary.

³ Of course he already created one by marrying Lysa, but he clearly didn't expect that to stick. He didn't have any heirs with Lysa, he isn't even trying to rule the Riverlands, and he's trying to rule the Vale via Robert for now and presumably Sansa/Harry later rather than by claiming it as an inheritance.

⁴ From the first couple books, it looked like the fact that they have so many more cadet branches than Europe was a good explanation: if someone somehow ends up with two titles, they're expected to give one away to a second son or brother or something (or elevate a new vassal if they prefer). But after that, as we got more information--well, House Lannister of Darry wasn't Tywin disposing of a second title, it was the king elevating a loyal supporter, who only coincidentally was a relative of an existing lord. Does that mean cadet branches aren't the answer? If not, what is?