Maegor the Cruel saved the Targaryen Dynasty

[Avlonnic]

This is a superb thread.  It almost seems that I am listening to Tyrion dispute history with Oberyn and Haldon - and possibly the Reader and Alleras. 

[Caspoi]

Lord Varys@ Historians always write people they dislike more negatively, and I have not really heard of any attempt by the maesters to question the established knowledge, and if someone did and they were shut out does not mean that their opinion was worthless.

[The Grey Wolf]

Lord Varys

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it stated at the end of Maegor's section that by the end he was as broken as Aenys by the loss of his mother's guidance and all the betrayals he experienced? And wouldn't that contradict the earlier statement that he took it all in a stride?

Also, it does bear mentioning that Maegor's excesses only really took off after the death of his mother.

Plus, the picture painted of Maegor I in TWOIAF seems to be one of over-the-top brutality (Aegon IV also seems to have gotten similar treatment though at least in his case GRRM's mentioning of a desire to write a story about his reign from his POV hints at some hidden depths we haven't seen yet), which I find odd considering that one-note characters are an exception to the norm in Westeros (Essos being an entirely different matter on the other hand).

[Lord Varys]

Maegor's breakdown seems to be a mystery. It is a theory put forth by the historians that Visenya' loss left him broken, but we don't know enough about their relationship to actually judge if that's a correct theory. And we don't also know when his excesses began since we don't have details on how he dealt with Aegon's supporters after the Gods Eye or the Faith Militant members and supporters he captured at Bitterbridge and elsewhere. We also know that he only pardoned one Warrior's Son at Oldtown when he went there with Balerion, Visenya, and Vhagar. One assumes that he killed them all, just as he killed all the people involved in the rebellion in the Vale in 37 AC.

 

Yandel also tells us that 'Maegor descended into madness' and that people put forth the theory that this truly began with the birth of the first monstrosity - we know from Ran that the fall of the Harroways and the execution of Alys took place in 44 AC, not in 48 AC (that's a mistake in the book). Visenya also died in 44 AC, but we don't know if that took place before or after the Harroway episode.

 

Taking three additional wives - the black brides - in 47 AC caused another uproar and major opposition among the Faith and the remaining pious lords, Alyssa and Jaehaerys were still at large and plotting Maegor's downfall, and Maegor himself eventually killed his strongest and most important ally, Tyanna of the Tower, his own wife and queen. I don't think Tyanna truly betrayed him. I think she used spells and magic to help him impregnate his wives - first Alys in 44 AC, and then later Jeyne and Elinor (explaining why Maegor couldn't impregnate Ceryse during their long marriage nor Alys while they were in Pentos). In Alys' case Tyanna successfully deflected responsibility for the monstrosity to Alys, but in Jeyne and Elinor's case it did not work. My guess is that Maegor had Tyanna tortured until she confessed what he wanted to hear since he could not face the truth that his semen was the problem. I have the feeling that she was as feared - or perhaps even more feared - than Maegor himself. If the whole monstrosity issue - first Alys, then Jeyne and Elinor - really got to Maegor this could explain why he wasn't capable of reacting to things in the end. He seems to have been very depressed, especially if he actually killed himself. Which is the theory I find the most convincing.

 

Maegor was always cruel, even as a child and a young man during the reign of his father. Aegon the Unworthy has good sides as well, he is corrupted gradually and unlike Maegor - who was a brooding loner, with no friends at all, very much like his mother - Aegon was very charismatic and witty in his youth and still during his reign. Aegon the Unworthy was only after his own pleasure, but not naive or stupid in the process. He knew what he could do, and he liked to play with the minds of the people around him. The best example for that is how he set the stages for the Blackfyre rebellions.

[SeanF]

I'd like to know a lot more about the build-up to the Faith Militant uprising, the details of the uprising, and the rest of Maegor's reign.

 

One thing that interests me was Visenya's officiating at Maegor's wedding to Alys Harroway.  Was she essentially acting in the capacity of co-ruler of Westeros?  Was she claiming spiritual, as well as temporal power?  Was it intended to be (or at any rate seen by the leaders of the Faith as being) the start of a crusade against them?

 

Maegor did save the dynasty, but his cruelty and madness also imperilled it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You theory about Tyanna and depression is pretty convincing.

 

Maegor was always cruel, even as a child and a young man during the reign of his father. Aegon the Unworthy has good sides as well, he is corrupted gradually and unlike Maegor - who was a brooding loner, with no friends at all, very much like his mother - Aegon was very charismatic and witty in his youth and still during his reign. Aegon the Unworthy was only after his own pleasure, but not naive or stupid in the process. He knew what he could do, and he liked to play with the minds of the people around him. The best example for that is how he set the stages for the Blackfyre rebellions.

I wouldn't put too much stock into that, especially into the accounts of his youth. It's tied to Maegor being a lousy rider and mistreating his horses - but that is contradicted by Maegor being probably the best jouster of his age, even in his youth.

As we know from Jaime, that's three--quarter horsemanship. Therefore, that's probably slander, no more.

[Lord Varys]

SeanF,

 

Visenya was acting simply as a person who could conduct a marriage there. Gyldayn tells us that she married Alys Maegor in the Valyrian way, 'with blood and fire', whatever that may mean. My guess is it was less spiritual and more magical. Valyria was a progressive society, and the dragonlords mostly atheist, so one expects that their marriage concept included a civil rather than a strictly religious marriage rite. I assume that it was the way the Targaryens married each other back on Dragonstone as well as the other dragonlords back in the Freehold.

 

Maegor and Visenya acted against Aenys' wishes in the whole thing. Maegor proclaimed that Ceryse was barren, and he was thus in need of a new wife. The marriage took place without Aenys' leave, knowledge, or presence, and we he learned of it he and Maegor quarreled bitterly. Lord Hightower demanded that Alys be set aside, and the High Septon - Ceryse's uncle - denounced it as 'sin and fornication', calling Alys 'that whore of Harroway', and proclaiming that 'no true son of the Seven would ever bow to such'. The pious lords adapted that view and called Alys 'whore' openly as well.

Maegor defends his actions by pointing out that his father had taken both his sisters to wife. 'The scriptures of the Faith might rule lesser men, but not the blood of the dragon.' This reveals that the Faith's doctrine actually forbid/outlaw polygamy, and Maegor actually acknowledges that, but demands to be an exception to rule because if his special blood. This proclamation of Maegor's begins the crusade of the High Septon and the Faith Militant against the Targaryens because the High Septon sees the true colors of House Targaryen (that they intend continue their abhorrent Valyrian ways in Westeros despite the Conqueror's assurances to the contrary). Maegor is put before a choice by Aenys in 40 AC - put Alys aside and return to his lawful wife Ceryse Hightower, or suffer five years of exile. Maegor chooses the latter. Aenys seems to have thought that Maegor would not do that. This doesn't mean that Aenys accepted Maegor's second wife because she accompanied Maegor into his exile. Aenys has the miracle-worker Septon Murmison - his new Hand, a futile attempt to placate the High Septon - lay his hands on Ceryse's belly each night to make her fertile, believing that his brother would repent his folly and return to his lawful wife if she could conceive children (one assumes that Aenys intended Maegor to try again after his return). Ceryse quickly tires of this whole stupidity, and departs to Oldtown and the Hightower, effectively ending the marriage.

 

Aenys remains strangely ignorant about the Faith's continued opposition to House Targaryen, but the Faith Militant and the High Septon continue preaching against the Targaryens and are preparing to strike even before Aenys makes his Aegon-Rhaena blunder in 41 AC.

[SeanF]

Lord Varys

 

Thanks.  Prior to the rise of the High Sparrow, it looks like the Faith only had a shadow of the power that it held in Aegon's/Aenys' time.

[Lord Varys]

That is not necessarily the case. George has said that the High Septons during the days of Robert and Joffrey were corrupt and willing to work closely with the Iron Throne, but this doesn't mean that they were necessarily powerless or puppets. The High Septons still outranked the Targaryen kings since they were avatars of the Seven, and all the kings had submit to them symbolically, and historically the High Septon(s) had tremendous influence during the reign of Baelor I. And even Aerys II submitted to the High Septon during his own walk of repentance.

 

Not to mention that they still crowned and anointed each king since Aegon the Conqueror.

 

Maegor and Jaehaerys disbanded the Faith Militant and got rid of the Faith's right to conduct trials - two important privileges that were important - but the Faith never lost its grip over the smallfolk. Wandering septons and begging brothers rule the mind and the conscience of the smallfolk to this day - this is the foundation of the power of the sparrow movement right now, and the quickness of its rise and success shows that the potential was always there. It just needed a charismatic leader like the High Sparrow to tap into it.

 

The High Septons could have tried to become major players in politics in the years since the Dance, but then, they would have been content with how things were by then, not to mention that they would have mostly been chosen from the ranks of noble septons, and those would have been heavily interconnected with the Lords and the Crown.

[SeanF]

Again, thanks.  My impression (from reading the books) was that the Faith (between the time of Jaehaerys and the High Sparrow) was firmly subordinate to the Kings (like the Orthodox churches for much of the time under the Eastern Emperors, and Tsars). 

 

I think that Kings view the coronation service differently from Prelates.  I don't think they see it as the Prelate bestowing the Crown on them (although the latter may well take that view).

[Lion of the West]

I've come to change my minds based on the arguments presented that Maegor did save the Targaryen dynasty from both Aenys' mistakes and inability to rule. Its clear that either Aenys needed to keep sweet with the Faith or face them with overwhelming power. Maegor understood that since he couldn't keep well with the Faith, then the war should be fought untill the enemy was destroyed or bent their knees. I will however not agree in that Maegor wasn't a usurper and while I can understand his reluctance to see Aenys' son on the throne after the debacle caused by the father, I think that he went to far when he took the crown for himself. A point of sympathy should be made that he tried to keep well with his House and kin even after his usurpation, but then it should also be mentioned with what cruelty he handled both his wives and his subjects. I can understand that you get unhinged by facing all that pressure, yet that's really no excuse for many of the things he did, like the massacre of the craftsmen constructing the Red Keep.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure he tried to keep well. There is no reason to assume that Alyssa and her children weren't always hostages against Aegon and Rhaena's good behavior, and Maegor also repeatedly tried to get his hands on them but Lord Lyman Lannister talked about 'guest right', and ignored his request.

 

Despite the fact that Maegor ascended the throne by ignoring the claims of Aenys' children, he is still counted as a rightful King of Westeros by the historians. One could even make the claim that Aenys I lost the whole Conquest, and Maegor took everything back 'by conquest' just as his father conquered it in his youth. We don't know what Aenys had done if he hadn't died so suddenly. Perhaps he may have accepted things as there were, and handed over the kingdoms he once ruled to the High Septon and the Faith Militant, who would then have installed some sort of theocracy with the Hightowers as 'the worldly leaders' of the new regime.

 

Aegon and Rhaena may have only survived the Crakehall siege because Maegor came back and attacked KL which forced the Faith Militant to muster a strong army to challenge him repeatedly. If Aenys had lived on, doing nothing, and if Visenya never had brought Maegor back, the Targaryens in Westeros could easily have been finished. The Lannisters may have only bestirred themselves to oppose the Faith Militant after the bulk of their strength had left for Bitterbridge or one of the other major battlefields against Maegor - if they did anything at all. We don't know yet how Aegon and Rhaena got from Crakehall to Casterly Rock.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm not sure he tried to keep well. There is no reason to assume that Alyssa and her children weren't always hostages against Aegon and Rhaena's good behavior, and Maegor also repeatedly tried to get his hands on them but Lord Lyman Lannister talked about 'guest right', and ignored his request.

Exceedingly unlikely. Not with all the power Maegor put into their hands. Power they demonstrated by leaving and taking a lot of high value swords and dragons with them.

[Lord Varys]

Well, so you think Alyssa Velaryon, who actually orchestrated Maegor's downfall later on, and who had shown earlier on that she did not like her brother-in-law all that much, wasn't taken into custody by Visenya and Maegor upon their return to Dragonstone? Don't you think she would have taken both Visenya's and Maegor's heads - just he took the Grand Maester's - if she had the chance and the power? The fact that she did not is all the proof I need to believe she was taken into custody, possibly even thrown into a cell beneath the castle.

 

She only escapes from Dragonstone after Visenya's death. Which is another sign that she was only freed from her captivity then. Maegor apparently was stupid enough to have no people especially loyal to him on Dragonstone while his mother ruled there. Else Alyssa would never have gotten away.

 

By the way - George actually described the following events after Aenys' death as a succession war after 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading. So it is quite clear that there was enmity and two factions from the start, and Alyssa not suddenly changed her mind about Maegor after realizing how bad a king and person he was - that was clear from the start.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

She only escapes from Dragonstone after Visenya's death. Which is another sign that she was only freed from her captivity then. Maegor apparently was stupid enough to have no people especially loyal to him on Dragonstone while his mother ruled there. Else Alyssa would never have gotten away..

Apparently Visenya hadn't either. Because her handpicked garrison switched over to Alyssa as soon as Visenya and her dragon couldn't force them into submission anymore.

Alyssa could never have escaped out of a cell, and especially not gotten her hands on Dark Sister. Same for Rhaena four years later. And Viserys was a squire, definitely not out of a cell. Nor Aena as crown princess.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know what happened on Dragonstone. And neither do we know whether Visenya's garrison was 'handpicked'. The text talks about confusion, meaning that it is very likely Alyssa and her children got off Dragonstone in a similar way Viserys and Dany later did - with the determined help of a few loyal friends, rather than the full garrison defecting to her. And we don't really know that she took any dragons with her. We don't know when exactly Jaehaerys and Alysanne bonded with their dragons. Perhaps they didn't have any at that point and chances upon some wild dragons on their way to the harbor?

 

Knowing Visenya I'd not be surprised if Visenya had left commands to kill Alyssa and her children in case of her death to ensure that Maegor wouldn't face any troubles from that side after she was gone. Whoever was entrusted with such a task may have been reluctant to go through with it now that Visenya was dead.

 

Viserys being a squire and a hostage isn't mutually exclusive. Theon was Ned's ward and squire, too - and a hostage. As were Dany's cupbearers in Meereen. Even Aerea may have been Maegor's heir and his hostage. Viserys could also have been hostage, squire, and heir presumptive.

 

We know how Rhaenyra got her hands on her father's crown. Alyssa could have gotten Dark Sister in a similar way - the person being with Visenya when she drew her last breath taking it and bringing it to her in her cell when he or she freed her.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You could be right. As in: It isn't impossible to happen like that.

 

Just exceedingly unlikely, especially since it has to have happened several times.

[SeanF]

It may be that after Visenya's death, the guards at Dragonstone weren't at all sure who they should be taking orders from, and that freeing members of the royal family was the safest course.

[SeanF]

Delete.

[Lord Varys]

BBE,

 

that is just a scenario. Alyssa could also have been a not-cell-bound hostage like Alicent and Helaena were during Rhaenyra's reign. Her natural authority as Queen Dowager could have been enough to ensure her escape in the aftermath of Visenya's death. Especially if she died suddenly rather than of some slowly progressing sickness. In that case she may actually have commanded the execution of Alyssa and her children when she felt her death approaching. Visenya doesn't strike me as a woman who doesn't tie up loose ends. If she already murdered Aenys, she is condemned as kinslayer anyway.

 

And we have to keep in mind that Aenys' brood was only relatively safe while Maegor didn't have any heirs of his own body. Visenya and Maegor needed Alyssa's children and grandchildren as spares to continue the dynasty should Maegor never have children of his own. But they would be all killed the very day one of his wives gave birth to healthy son - or perhaps, a few months or years later, just in case. Or after Maegor had a few additional spares.