AFFC Reread Project - Cersei

[IshtarNZ]

As with Dorne, just going to post my notes now, then I'll read the thread and respond later!

Cersei

I’m going to stop with the characters bit now I think, because I was getting confused and there’s so many who may or may not be significant!

Setting: the Court in King’s Landing

It was interesting to see the immediate, huge impact Tywin’s death had.

The mention of the word “valonqar†I *think* was new in this version, I don’t remember it anyway. And I was confused about what it meant. At first I thought it meant “dwarf†or something like that. It wasn’t until later that I figured it out.

You get immediate glimpses of Cersei’s paranoia and madness, and lust for power – she is utterly paranoid about the Tyrells, and blames just about everything on them. But you also see her huge admiration for her father, and her wish to emulate him. I found it quite sad, how she was always trying to live up to her father’s example and his expectations, but never quite made it. I think because it rang true with me, and had similarities with my relationship with my father.

I also really liked seeing Cersei’s view of her relationship with Jaime. It showed just how one-sided it was, and how much she manipulated him. Jaime clearly loves his sister, but I don’t know if Cersei is capable of loving anyone, except perhaps her children.

Not much happens in this chapter, but you get a real feeling for how crazy Cersei’s character is, and a good look at her relationships with the people around her, and her father. Interesting, and I immediately wanted more Cersei, I was glad that GRRM stuck to his word and she didn’t become a sympathetic character – she’s bad to the bone!

[Happy Ent]

We also need to understand that this chapter is meant to (re-)introduce readers to the situation. It's a multi-volume work, and the first chapters of all continued plots are always used to remind old readers and introduce new readers to what was important. Not everybody comes prepared with 24 rereads, like the good people on this board.

[IshtarNZ]

Right, now I can do my replies to this thread!

A wildling:

Very perceptive, noticing that Lannisters hating being laughed at, I guess its to do with their pride - they hate being inferior to others.

Good point about no-one being surprised about Shae being there either - but surely, as she had testified against Tyrion in a very public manner, and Qyburn points out that she was Sansa's maid, other people would have made the connection too.

Baelor Breakspear:

"this thread is clearly less popular than the dorne thread judging by commenst and views. last week the ironborn thread was less travelled. any opinions why?"

I think it could be to do with the fact that Dorne and Oldtown are both totally new settings for us - we had had no view of them at all, so they're very interesting. Also, a lot more happens in the Dorne and Oldtown chapters, and there's a lot more nuances and signs and portents, so there's a lot more to discuss.

Old Zog:

"This seems as good a place as any to ask, What is hippocras?"

Hippocras is a spiced wine.

Lady Softheart:

"Somebody mentioned the nakedness, but it seems to be not such a big deal in Westeros - Catelyn Stark received Maester Luwin completely naked back in A Game of Thrones. "

Yes, and Ned started to object and Luwin started to leave but Catelyn told them not to worry, as Luwin had seen her naked before. (This is from very vague memory, don't have my copy to hand). So its not completely comfortable. I too was surprised that Cersei is awakened surrounded by men, instead of awakened by a maid, dressed, and presented to them. Although I just thought they must have demanded entrance as its an emergency.

"Err, what else? Well, the "naked in public dream where everyone is laughing at you" isn't so unusual, is it? I've had those kinds of dreams about examinations. "

Yep, been there done that myself too! But I have more dreams of being chased by things than being naked in public, so put me in the Jaime camp (I'm thinking of the dream where he's in the dark under Casterly Rock).

Bastard of Godsgrace:

"Istill think there is something decidedly fishy in the Tywin/Shae business."

So do I, but I'm not sure what. We know that Tywin, in public, is very anti-whore. But its completely unreasonable to assume, as Cersei does, that he hasn't had sex for what, 30 or so years? How old is Tyrion anyway? I mean, we see in other places, like the Nights Watch, that its pretty unreasonable to expect men to totally ignore their "urges". So clearly, he does use whores, he's just more discreet. But *Tyrion's* whore just seems odd to me. So, hmmm.

Matt:

"I think valonqar means "younger brother". And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Cersei the first of the twins? If so, that combined w/ GRRM's constant tendency to mess with us, leads me to believe that JAIME is the one that may well end up killing her. Just a thought, and certainly no proof yet, but I can't shake the suspicion."

Yes, I came up with this too on the old board. Cersei has *two* younger brothers, not just one. I think this is highly significant.

Happy Ent:

"We also need to understand that this chapter is meant to (re-)introduce readers to the situation. It's a multi-volume work, and the first chapters of all continued plots are always used to remind old readers and introduce new readers to what was important. Not everybody comes prepared with 24 rereads, like the good people on this board."

Absolutely, I wasn't complaining that not much happens, because we do learn quite a bit. I'm not in the "action" camp!

Right, now I'm officially caught up, I just have to stay caught up for the next week till I go away again!

[Happy Ent]

But its completely unreasonable to assume, as Cersei does, that he hasn't had sex for what, 30 or so years?

Wrong. That is exactly Tywin. What is the first thing we learn of him? He doesn't believe in half measures. When his hair began to fall out, he shaved it off. All of it. When his son was imprisoned in Riverrun, he wrote him off for dead.

Most people wouldn't stay chaste after their beloved wife dies. But Tywin, very much, would do exactly that.

[Reposado]

i think it's wrong to assume either way. what we do know, is that the one time we witness his bedchamber, there is a whore there. maybe it was a one time thing. but i personally doubt that.

[IshtarNZ]

Ok Happy Ent, I see your point. So I went back and looked at Tyrion's last chapter in AFFC. Here is what we know:

Tyrion enters Tywin's bedchamber, and Shae hears him and calls out "m'lord?". When Tyrion pulls back the curtains she turns towards him with a "sleepy" smile on her lips. Tywin is in the privy.

Because we are seeing this through Tyrion's eyes, Tyrion assumes that his father has been sleeping with Shae, and thus so do we. But there's no evidence of this. When Tyrion is talking to Tywin, Tywin is still very derisive of whores. And it seems totally out of character that he would have a whore, especially *Tyrion's* whore.

We know from earlier that Shae has a habit of taking her clothes off. Often Tyrion would find her naked. And we also know that Shae's only asset is her body. Further, we know now, from Cersei's chapter, that Cersei had made promises to Shae about her treatment and had not fulfilled them, and had left Cersei in tears.

So, here's my guess:

Tywin summons Shae to question her over Jofrrey's death and Sansa's disappearance, and Tyrion's habits, comings and goings, etc. When she arrives, Tywin is in the privy, and she decides to use her only bargaining chip, her body, to obtain a more favourable outcome for herself. She uses the tactic she always used on Tyrion, thinking that if it worked on the son it might work on the father, and strips herself off, and puts on the chain of hands. Soon after, Tyrion arrives, with his father still in the privy, and Shae of course hearing him thinks that its finally Tywin making an appearance.

But, unless Varys sheds some light on the little enigma of a naked Shae in Tywin's bedchamber, I don't think we'll ever know the full story, as both Shae and Tywin are now dead...

[cteresa]

Finally caught the read, and am now very grateful to all those who insisted on two at most chapters a week.

Thynessa has some great points about Cersei´s reactions. I know people had been mentioning Cersei as descending into madness but honestly I do not quite see it, in this chapter already we see a lot of Cersei´s earlier work ( Robert for example) and what she is. Varys´s non lethal soporific was pointless after all for example. But like Thyness I think she is here at her most vulnerable and almost likeable, because here her grief feels real. I sympathize with her ressenting to be the last to know. But she is a catastrophe with power, she just does not THINK of others ever. She reacts to enemity, or she tries to use people. And maybe part of why she is as bad as politics is the same, she does not stop to think of what could have been the other´s motivations, she has enemies who she considers capable of everything ( and of course, she will top them in her actions) or stooges she uses, nothing in between. I do think she is stupid, but that is not worth discussing because in the end it is impossible to define that for sure. In my native language would say she was "smarts" in the sense she acts fast and is always on the lookout for anybody who might harm her, but not really brains.

Lots of very shrewd comments already, just want to add a couple tidbits. The Lannisters really have a thing about who is "Tywin´s true son". Tyrion has a thing to prove it, Cersei considers herself it.

Cersei ´s "half a mind to tear it [the tower] down" is an excellent example of Cersei making up her mind and acting on it, no regard to cost or other considerations.

Tywin has already started to smell very bad. Any theories?

Tytos died when the twins were one year old and Tywin was already hand then.

Osney´s face has scratches from "another of Tyrion´s whores". I feel this obvious, but can not remember who! Chataya?

About Tywin and Shae, oh, I think she was there for the obvious reason. Cersei´s story feels true and fair, but surely a man like Tywin can have a complex enough personality to be able to treat differently a woman he ressented for stealing his mother´s clothes and well Shae.

[rpthomps]

I have a general question about Westeros. Autumn and Winter seem to be an irregular and lengthy occurence. What type of orbit is this planet on? I would say it's a long one because people are having birthdays and winter hasn't arrived yet but the fact that no one can accurately predict the seasons is confounding. Perhaps a winter is not coming but an ice-age of sorts?

[Reposado]

im not sure if tywin would be in the privy long enough for her to acquire a sleepy look. it seems very presumptuous of her to just strip.....and put on the chain, especially after the way she has been treated by cersei. also, i wouldn't think the guards would bring her into the room, find him not there, and just leave.

as to the seasons, this isn't raelly the place but grrm has said there is a reason but we do not know it yet. it is, however, a fantasy reason and not a science reason.

[Waterdancer]

Cteresa: Tywin shit himself right when he was dying. So his ass crack was dirty, plus his digestive organs were pierced so additional odor must be emanating from there. A totally distasteful picture here, and laughable (to some) that he died on the privy. This sort of death for a guy who hated to be laughed at. The gods must've wanted to get even with him for a few things...

[Old Zog]

Osney´s face has scratches from "another of Tyrion´s whores". I feel this obvious, but can not remember who! Chataya?

I'd guess Alayaya.

[IshtarNZ]

Old Zog is correct, it was Alayaya.

As for the "sleepy smile" of Shae - it could be fake. We know that she is very good at faking emotions. And it might not have been sleepy - its Tyrion who sees it as sleepy. It could have been shy, or scared, or apprehensive.

In any case, I really don't think we'll know until we get more information, its impossible to tell what was really going on in the bedchamber.

[Happy Ent]

As for the "sleepy smile" of Shae -

The theory goes that Shae was dosed with Sweetsleep. That would account for her drowsiness. Likewise, Tywin was poisoned with Widow's Blood, which "glued him to the privy shaft" for the whole duration of the break-out, and further could be used to explain the medically puzzling condition of his bowels.

But unfortunately, Feast is silent about the effects of Widow's Blood. We got a good glimpse of the poison during Clash, where Tyrion uses it to poison Cersei. We learn in Cat of the Canals that the Tears of Lys will eat your bowels (or something like that), which would account for the bad smells Tywin's corpse emits, but sadly no tidbit about the effects of Widow's Blood on dead bodies is offered. Trust me, I kept my eyes very open—I was sure the entire "why does Tywin smell so bad" subplot would lead up to decisive evidence of his poisoning with Widow's Blood. But so far—nothing.

[The hairy bear]

She just guessed the wrong murder. House Tyrell actually was behind the death—of Joffrey! We may think she is paranoid, but she actually is almost right.

I hadn't thought of this before, but isn't it brilliant that at first Cersei blames Joffrey's murder to Tyrion and Tywin's murder to the Tyrells?

IMO, the best thing of this chapter is the evolution of Cersei's thoughts after the news. As you've said. without thinking it explicitly, she goes from sorrow to confusion, and from confusion to the realisation of her power. Very good writing, indeed.

On the planting of Shae: Cersei is the last one they wake up. They've called Jaime, Kevan, a handful of guards, the entire kingsguard (save Balon Swann, it seems), Grand Maester Pycelle,... all of them have seen Tywin's body. All of them knew Shae. We don't know if Tywin used Shae, and if it was widespread, but regardless of that we see that no one seems to find the fact shameful enough, or secret enough, or problematic enough to bother to remove Shae's body from there.

ETA: HE, there's no place in the timeline for this chapter?

[Happy Ent]

ETA: HE, there's no place in the timeline for this chapter?

You rang? Cersei I plays on the day after Tyrion XI in Storm.

When is that? I have no idea. The penultimate Tyrion X, containing the death of Oberyn Viper I place on 12 Jan 300. Tyrion is marched back to the black cells. After that, Jaime IX (in Storm) sees Jaime sending Brienne on her quest, and deciding that he has a task to do. (Presumably freeing Tyrion). Maybe this is 12 Jan, maybe 13 Jan (Lord Tywin has sent a letter about Oberyn to Dorne). Here you go:

12 Jan Tyrion X. Oberyn dies

12 Jan(?) Tywin writes to Doran

13 Jan(?) Jaime sends Brienne

15 Jan(?) Captain of the Guards Doran reveives letter

The question is where to place Tyrion XI: Death of Tywin. All we know is that Tyrion thinks "about time!" when Jaime opens the cell door, and that he has "lost all sense of time". That could have taken hours or days, I have no idea.

Let's say two days at least. That gives us

14 Jan Tyrion XI Tywin dies.

15 Jan Cersei

This would be the aggressively paces timeline. We need Brienne's timeline to get a good fix on when the information about Tywin's death catches up with her, maybe that will help.

The biggest problem with the aggressive timeline is The Queenmaker. I have the feeling that chapter happens weeks after Captain of the Guards. But Arianne's group receives the news of Tywin's death in that chapter, which would mean that

(1) Queenmaker plays no more than a days after Cersei I

Captain itself takes three days, say 15, 16, 17 January. No news of Tywin's death has reached Sunspear... Strange.

This would mean that "Tyrion XI: Tywin dies" plays later than 17 Jan. So how about having the Imp rot for a week in the Black Cells, awaiting his execution?

21 Jan Tyrin XI: Tywin dies

22 Jan Cersei

24 Jan The Queenmaker

I like this much better, because it gives Arianne a week to plan her treason.

[A wilding]

Shae may not have been that recognisable, as she had been strangled and her face was "black".

It is possible that a single Lord using bedwarmers is commonplace, while at the same time being something about which discretion is usual. Something like having a stash of porn in RL perhaps, or visible evidence of a slightly embarrassing medical condition. That would explain most of the people present ignoring Shae or at least not examining her too closely - especially once Cersei arrived.

But yes, it is a little odd that Jaime at least did not recognise Shae or decide that her presence was worth following up.

[LadySoftheart]

The only place Jaime would have recognized Shae from is from Tyrion's trial, right? And it's not clear from the text that he went to EVERY session of Tyrion's trial, only some of them (because presumably he had duties elsewhere as well!) Because he's away (in prison!) the whole time that Tyrion has his affair with Shae - it's not like he ever met her in a social setting (or, for that matter, saw her naked!) She's killed with great violence - the chain cutting into her neck and her face is black and frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to think that a strangled naked girl would be immediately and clearly recognizable as the same girl he saw giving testimony against his brother.

Plus, it sounds like he went straight down into the tunnels where they searched for hours etc. And possibly he figured his father DID have girls in his bed from time to time - it's only Cersei who seems to be totally flummoxed by Shae's being around ...

[Ashara Stark]

This would be the aggressively paces timeline. We need Brienne's timeline to get a good fix on when the information about Tywin's death catches up with her, maybe that will help.

Brienne hears about Tywin's death in Duskensdale (Brienne II). Hope it helps

By the way, I think your second timeline, placing Tywin's death on January the 21st is much more realistic

[Caligula_K]

Old Zog is correct, it was Alayaya.

As for the "sleepy smile" of Shae - it could be fake. We know that she is very good at faking emotions. And it might not have been sleepy - its Tyrion who sees it as sleepy. It could have been shy, or scared, or apprehensive.

In any case, I really don't think we'll know until we get more information, its impossible to tell what was really going on in the bedchamber.

[Happy Ent]

Brahm, the tunnel to Chataya's works even better for the Varys Planted Shae camp. Varys lied and made up the story in order to make Tyrion suspect Tywin used whores. And really: Tywin built a tunnel? Into the Red Keep? In secrecy? When? And if he is so comletely wacko, why on Earth have sex with Shae in his own quarters? That's much more difficult to explain.

Varys lied. It's part of his plan to set up Tyrion to kill Tywin in a crime of passion. (And yes, the whole theory is extremely elaborate, beginning with Varys initial finding of Shae, his understanding that this is Tyrion's main weakness, his facilitation of the Tyrion-Shae relationsship, Tyrion's careful introduction to the tunnel system and the fact that you can get from the mosaic room to the Hand's quarters... all this only to eventually set him up to kill Tywin. But this is not a good thread to discuss it. I will cease to comment on it beyond what is relevant for our re-read of Feast.)