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The ASOIAF wiki thread


463 replies to this topic

#41 Ran

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:10 PM

A license that requires attribution is acceptable according to what I saw on the Wikipedia site discussing licensing. So that's okay.

The potential issue is that Wikis using GFDL must be sure all images are usable for any purpose whatsoever -- i.e., commercial use has to be permitted. Whether Amok meant to say that it's okay for the images to be used in any which way, I can't say. He may well think it's fine, and that may have been his intention.

I'll stick with our wiki not using them until it's clearer, but in any case, the fact that requires attribution isn't in itself an issue.

ETA: For those who don't have time to actively contribute, but would like to see the Wiki be more useful, the Community Portal for the Wiki of Ice and Fire has a place to put in suggestions for articles you'd like to see, and a means of indicating articles which you believe need to be worked on further, and so on. Please consider contributing there to give active editors some ideas of where they can profitably put their energy!

Edited by Ran, 21 May 2009 - 02:19 PM.


#42 Evrach

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:15 PM

Well, for his sake, I hope you’ve done your homework on this. As far as I can see from the page footer, all your content is released under GFDL. I’m far from an expert in these matters, but to my untrained (but paranoid eye) this looks like a contradiction.


Each image by Amok has the link in its page (I possibly forgot one or two, just signale me) anf only texts are under GFDL. Amok's Images and all our own-made images (blasons, genealogic trees, etc...) aren't. It's written in French, but it's written ^^. And it's not paranoia, it's important ! Our webmaster is himself very paranoid about this kind of things.

#43 Ran

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 05:10 PM

Minor victory, but I managed to get the logo back in place. Heh. Stupidest mistake ever there, but ah well.

I'm going to see if maybe I can get a caching program in place to improve performance a bit.

#44 Happy Ent

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 12:04 AM

[...] only texts are under GFDL. Amok's Images and all our own-made images (blasons, genealogic trees, etc...) aren't. [...]

Ah. Good thinking. (Assuming this works – sounds like it to me.)

#45 Ran

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 01:14 AM

Huh. Wikipedia is migrating away from the GFDL to Creative Commons. Guess we'll have to do the same at the wiki, just for consistency.

I like Le Garde de Nuits solution to images and such. Rewriting the copyright block to note that text will be CC but images will not seems like a viable approach to things.

#46 maulkin

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 06:00 PM

Hi there,

I'm one of the other the admin, as well as some kind of "ambassador" of "La Garde de Nuit" (as you've probably guessed, it means "the night's watch" in french). ( and I'm not the Big Boss, but i can speak in his name)
So Amok allowed us to use his images in a non commercial way, provided there's a clear notice saying it's his work, and it's copyrighted.
We are also thinking of switching to CC, actually we are under GFDL because it was the default when intalling the mediawiki system.
The thing is we can legaly switch from GFDL to a CC licence between December 2008 and August the 1, so we will see what we'll do.

It's nice to see you're using the same system as us IPB+Mediawiki+IPBwiki! :) If you encounter some serious issue, don't hesitate to ask us. (for instance we know one bug known as the "casper bug" which is related to linking mediawiki discussion page to IPB forum, leading to tones of empty discussions being created alone...)
If you would like, I think we could setup a partnership between our 2 encyclopedia, it's just an idea though. (maybe for sharing some works, eg graphics, etc)

Hope you the best for this future english encyclopedia!

Edited by maulkin, 23 May 2009 - 08:32 AM.


#47 Onion Knight

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 03:03 AM

Hey, the thread is bumped and there is progress concerning the wiki. Cool.

I'll edit the headline.

#48 Evrach

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 04:25 AM

Maulkin -> Wah ^^ you're english is much better than mine, brother. :P

Onion Knight -> If you (or other people) wanna improve your wiki and need help about "how to organise the wiki ?", "how to create templates ?", "how to create frames ?", "how to handle with spoilers ?", etc. don't hesitate ^^ we had to deal with all these questions and it's not as easy as it seems.

Edited by Evrach, 23 May 2009 - 04:26 AM.


#49 Werthead

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 02:03 PM

Ran, is it possible to find out the answer to the long-standing question of if Asshai is on the Essosi continent or on a Yet Further Eastern landmass? It's kind of hard to write an article on the Jade Sea without knowing if it is a whole other ocean or just a giant version of the Black Sea (or the Circle Sea from the Discworld books) with Asshai (and presumably Yi Ti and the Shadow Lands) on the far shore but still on the same continent as Qarth and the rest.

Or is this a R-(the World Book)-AFO? ;)

#50 Ran

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 02:20 PM

Hrm. Maybe I'll sneak the question into my next mail to GRRM. I mailed him recently concerning maps. Haven't heard back, but if he does respond I'll try and find out. :)

Also, some great movement in the wiki thanks to Marlov, the hairy bear, and Scafloc so far. Thanks guys, and everyone else who's working on contributions and editing! Not a lot of movement on getting more extensions installed and other tweaks just yet, as I was knackered all of yesterday, but maybe tomorrow.

Thanks, too, to Evrach and and maulkin, for your generous offer of assistance! Definitely something I'm sure we could make use of to improve the wiki over time. I think folks should poke around the French wiki to get some useful ideas for articles we haven't even thought of yet, and organizational and template stuff. :)

maulkin,

Yeah, the IPBWiki bridge seemed like a great way of approaching things. We mainly use it for shared user database, though. Do you find using its Discussion -> IPB Forum feature very useful? We've so far just used the wiki's own discussion feature. What advantages have found using IPB's forums for carrying out wiki and article discussion?

Edited by Ran, 23 May 2009 - 02:26 PM.


#51 French DireWolf

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 03:25 PM

Do you find using its Discussion -> IPB Forum feature very useful? We've so far just used the wiki's own discussion feature. What advantages have found using IPB's forums for carrying out wiki and article discussion?

The goal was to give more visibility to the wiki and its developement. Unfortunately, the "Casper" bug created many empty threads randomly on the forum. The number of empty threads rised recently, so when more than 100 empty threads showed up in less than a day, we decided to stop this feature... :|

#52 Ran

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 03:27 PM

Wow. That'd be terribly annoying. I guess it's a good thing I never tried it.

Do you have just a general space to discuss the Wiki, independent of the actual Mediawiki, on your forum? Wondering whether this may be a good approach to increasing the visibility and getting people to discuss it. Right now I've stickied this thread in hopes it'll attract a bit more attention.

#53 maulkin

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 05:46 PM

I definitely think your wiki would benefit having a special subforum dedicated (along The World of Ice and Fire and Re-read Project).

Before we setup this subforum, the wiki was doing fine, but it's easier to have a place where actually people can organize its construction. I think it will bring more attention for your own members, questions can be answered one at a time (because here, you have a topic that will increase and be a giant melting pot, not the best way to make things clear).
Also a bunch of people can decide to concentrate on one special aspect (we have one thread about grammatical corrections of all articles).

I suggest you to create a thread where you tell all the main modifications you're operating on, and another one for Q&A (that maybe later become a FAQ). These 2 threads are stickies in our subforum, after that all other discussions are mostly related to specific articles. And it's better to discuss the articles onto the forum, because you can have a rapid overview of everything being worked, rather than having to randomly search throughout the wiki. (because of the "casper bug" they recently decided to put a link to a forum thread to discuss about one article, rahter than doing it onto th wiki itself, as it's on wikipedia)

We have also a portal (tab of the home page) containing all the ressources needed to improve the the wiki, it concerns several aspects:
-tutorials (containg examples of models for characters/event/etc, the wiki language,...)
-Conventions about the writing (for example if to put capitals letters or not, etc)
But this is more for informations, a subforum is top when you need to talk (as well as a chatroom)

I dont know where to put this so here I go: for the characters articles we used the following structure(example with the Daenerys one):

1 In AGOT
1.1 Wedding
1.2 The Dothrakis
1.3 War
1.4 Births
2 In ACOK
2.1 Wandering
2.2 Qarth
2.3 Propheties
2.4 Departure
3 In ASOS
3.1 Astapor
3.2 Yunkai
3.3 Meereen
4 In AFFC
5 In ADWD
6 Notes et references [we always try to source with chapter and book where the info can be found, sometimes to SSM ;) ]
So the article is separated following the books, useful for referencing, and it adds consistency throughout the articles.

To be fair, what made the difference was the 4 people trully dedicated to the wiki for about one year with big knowledge about ASOIAF and willing to improve the wiki. (Evrach and French Direwolf you could see here along the "not here" Lord Riusma and Lapin Rouge, not forgetting to mention Lord Corbac, THE big boss always supporting)

For technical aspects of the wiki, don't hesitate to ask Evrach rather than reinventing the wheel :P , he has mastered the art of doing that (with Lord Riusma).

What more to say, we have a huge collection of heraldry made mainly by French Direwolf (this guy is a legend, truly amazing :D ) we would be happy to share if you will.
Oh yeah, and we switched from GFDL to [b]CC by-nc-sa[/b]. (I did a little research about GFDL, and read through the official papers: it's clearly intented for software, CC are better for written/audio/art works).

Edited by maulkin, 23 May 2009 - 05:57 PM.


#54 Werthead

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 08:18 PM

Tried uploading the map of Westeros to the Wiki but no dice I'm afraid. I hit Upload and it looks like it's working, but then times out and goes to a white screen, and going to the target URL doesn't work either. Tried it two or three times to no avail.

#55 Ran

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 02:29 AM

How large is it? I think I put in a limit on the upper size. It's also a rather slow upload link, as mentioned up thread, and could very well time out anyways because PHP has a limited window that it allows for a connection.

If you have it up anywhere else, give me a pointer and I can see whether it's possible to FTP it directly to the server and get it to pull it in.

#56 Ran

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 03:52 AM

Okay, after some examination it looks like what's happening is that auto-thumbnailing is borked. You're supposed to get the thumbnail of the image first thing, and that's just not happening. However, the image is actually in there at full size. Why it's not working, I am not sure, but I'll contact sparks -- it may be something needs to be done with the graphics library that does the conversion.

#57 French DireWolf

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 04:12 AM

Didn't realize that images were that important to people. Hrm...

Images are very useful to illustrate an article, but they can be used for more unusual things too, like this or that

#58 Ran

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 04:19 AM

Nice. I do believe that we have a timeline image somewhere, using the timeline extension.

That genealogy is going to get much larger once the world book is published. And there'll be at least one more genealogy to add to the list, House Stark. ;) I'm not sure how far George has gotten with other family trees just yet, but the Targaryen and Stark genealogies are pretty complete.

#59 Evrach

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 04:54 AM

Can't wait for World Book :drool:
We made a lot of other trees, although we need to modify them at each book release >_< : http://www.lagardede...h...éalogiques

#60 Alty

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 05:13 AM

I understand why you don't want to have images, but I really think it's a think that would be worth looking into at some point. I know the majority of time they won't really add any new information to a page, but I think the pages just look so bland and plain without a single bit of colour in them.