Arya is not psychotic

[Drogo]

Before you begin if this is the 100th thread of this topic you've seen. I'm sorry. I've seen them all too, this topic will likely not but to rest this debate but I prefer laying out my explanations in this manner rather than jumpstarting a dead thread with a new post.

She's a survivor. I've gotten a little fed up with so many people claiming that Arya has been totally corrupted by trials she's faced and the only possible outcome for her life is to be a deranged killer.

This is bullshit.

Could someone please find an instance where Arya kills or acts violently in a situation where it wasn't justified? Off the top of my head every violent act has had either life and death stakes for her or she is following the code that was taught to her by her family. Lets take a look at her acts of violence.

*Hitting Joffery. Totally justified. Shouldn't have to explain why.

*Killing the stableboy. Justified. She found her father's men dead, she saw Syrio more or less face his death, she needed to get safe and the kid would've delivered her to the queen, the opposite of safe. She needed to kill him

*beating up the boys on the road with Yoren. Kids will be kids. They taunted her, she showed them what was up. Justified

* Killing with Yoren and crew during Lorch's siege of their hiding spot. Life or Death. The invading lannister men were going to kill them. What was Arya gonna do? Be a little girl and cry while she watched her friends die or kill mother fuckers? Justified.

*On the road with gendry, hot pie, lommy and weasel. Can't recall her doing anything particularly violent or agressive. Mostly she just stayed resourceful eating/foraging anything (apple from a dead guy). She even protested Gendry's idea that they should just ditch the others. Even after facing all she has so far she still won't abandon innocent people, very nedlike. Once captured by the mountain she tries biting one of the soldiers. Her friends were getting capture or killed a little biting is in order i think.

I checked the wiki for the rest of her "kills" here are the stats.

Confirmed Kills

* A King's Landing stableboy: Stabbed in the belly, after he threatened her during the fall of the Starks.

* Several Lannister soldiers, during Amory Lorch's attack, slashed and stabbed.

* Chyswick: Pushed off the walls of Harrenhal by Jaqen H'ghar, after she ordered his death.

* Weese: Killed by his own dog, turned mad by Jaqen H'ghar, after she ordered his death.

* A Bolton guard: Throat slit, he blocked her way out of Harrenhal.

* A Sarsfield squire: Stabbed in the belly, after he threatened her.

* The Tickler: Stabbed many times in the back.

* Dareon: Throat slit and corpse dumped in a canal, after confirming he was a Night's Watch deserter.

She also was the initiator of, and, along Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge and Biter, took part in the killing of eight Harrenhal jailors, an event that would be remembered as the "weasel soup", from the nickname she then used.

To me I see a girl being forced to kill to survive. Not a developing sociopath. We can claim that all this violence as warped her anyways and we've yet to see how bloodthirsty she is but this just isn't true. Every act of violence she has perpetrated have been either against people totally deserving of death or people who took something she loved away. It is not sociopath to want the death of those who hurt u or your loved ones. Plus as a child, and from what she has seen death is the only gauruntee of safety from a threatening person. She could've killed the Hound, but she left him. To die? Maybe. I'm sure she was fairly certain he would die, but she didn't kill him. Even when he was on her list for half the series. Her ability to walk away from the dying Hound shows she still has the Stark sense of right and wrong. There is nothing disturbed about Arya. She is a strong-willed child forced into situations were a person of weaker will would snap and actually become psychotic. Rather she maintains her identity and sense of morality all the way through. She resists the Faceless Men's attempt to make her no one. Holding back Needle proved that she is still the exact same girl we first men in AGOT, she has just seen more of life and death. It's stupid to declare her irrevocably fucked up just because she saw a hardside of life. Every peasant in the series has likely endured stuff similar to her yet they aren't running around murdering people. In this realm boys of 9-13 would ride into battle. Surrounded by men and horse being slaughtered and shitting. Doesn't seem like every squire and page who survive the battles is totally fucked up in the head. People should stop expecting Arya to become some Patrick Batemenesque serial killer who flings death on a whim. The girl kills when she needs to. Never because she wants to. And she always hears their last words. Ned would be proud. Thug life.

[Ealasaid]

Please add to this GRRM said out loud in Saint Louis at Borders, "Ayra is not psychotic.," in no uncertain terms.

[Kalbear]

So explain to us Dareon, then?

Dareon didn't know her.

Dareon, in Braavos, was no threat to the Night's Watch. Or anyone else.

Dareon wasn't a threat to her. He wasn't even aware of her existence. He certainly didn't attack her.

Dareon wasn't on her list. He had done nothing wrong to anyone she knew or cared about.

So why kill Dareon? How is she killing there and being 'forced' to survive? At best you can argue that she's carrying out the will of Ned there, but she didn't execute him or even pronounce his death. She just murdered him.

Now, you could make the argument that we don't know that he was murdered. We don't know that Arya killed him. That's interesting and different. But right now that's not particularly clear, and it's particularly clear we're supposed to think him murdered.

[Drogo]

Dareon was a deserter of the Night's Watch. An organization tied extremely close to House Stark. So close in fact that Ned personally takes the head off of any deserter captured.

Arya does hear his last words. When she is in the brothel doing something she hears him say how he will never go back to the watch. Sounds like a confession to treason to me.

Arya, still being a Stark at heart, kills him. Sorry it wasn't a big ceremony with him kneeling over a block and Arya pronouncing her house and intent. Regardless she killed a man who was a deserter from organization she was taught her whole life as being a group that desertion from would mean death.

It was her duty to kill him.

[Xenophon]

She's a survivor. I've gotten a little fed up with so many people claiming that Arya has been totally corrupted by trials she's faced and the only possible outcome for her life is to be a deranged killer.

This is bullshit...

It's stupid to declare her irrevocably fucked up just because she saw a hardside of life. Every peasant in the series has likely endured stuff similar to her yet they aren't running around murdering people.

I agree it seems over-the-top to say she's either become or going to become psychotic. But the opposite claim that she hasn't changed at all despite what she's faced also seems like BS to me. And it seems like arguments about her often gravitate to those extremes pretty quickly, excluding the middle ground that she's become a darker character but not a serial killer.

[hackhamster]

Dareon was a deserter of the Night's Watch. An organization tied extremely close to House Stark. So close in fact that Ned personally takes the head off of any deserter captured.

Arya does hear his last words. When she is in the brothel doing something she hears him say how he will never go back to the watch. Sounds like a confession to treason to me.

Arya, still being a Stark at heart, kills him. Sorry it wasn't a big ceremony with him kneeling over a block and Arya pronouncing her house and intent. Regardless she killed a man who was a deserter from organization she was taught her whole life as being a group that desertion from would mean death.

It was her duty to kill him.

I call BS. If you recall, by this point it has been impresed upon her that she was nobody, not a Stark, not Arya, etc... While she may have self-justified the killing as.a lawful execution, she killed him because she wanted to. Thus her blinding righht after.

She-s crazy as a bedbug.

[Xenophon]

It was her duty to kill him.

Are you sure about that? Are NW deserters outlaws, meaning anyone can kill them, or are they more like ordinary criminals, in which case, IIRC only a lord or his representative has the right to pass sentence on them?

[Kalbear]

Arya, still being a Stark at heart, kills him. Sorry it wasn't a big ceremony with him kneeling over a block and Arya pronouncing her house and intent. Regardless she killed a man who was a deserter from organization she was taught her whole life as being a group that desertion from would mean death.

It was her duty to kill him.

No, it was not.

She has no authority to kill him. She has no authority to even touch him. The only person that has a duty to kill him is lord that captures him and passes sentence. Note that she cannot even pass sentence here.

Heck, she's not even the eldest Stark!

You're basically saying that if Bran came across some deserters from the Wall he can just stab them. That's simply not true. That's not justice, that's certainly not his duty, and that's not what Ned would want regardless.

Now, she might have thought that it was her duty to kill him - but what 10-year old thinks 'hey, I need to kill that guy because it's my duty?' Actually that's a good point; when was she taught that she needs to kill deserters? She wasn't present when they caught any of them, and Bran had to be told then. Why would Arya even know? But let's assume she knew that rule. Why would she assume that it was her duty? Why not tell Sam, who is the person in charge (and she clearly knows)? Why not tell the ruler of Braavos?

Why does she take it upon herself to judge him and pass sentence on him?

And note that he almost certainly has no idea why he'd be killing her. Do you think that she stood there and said 'I, Arya Stark and Lady of Winterfell (which she is not) sentence you to die'? No.

She's not the Lord of Winterfell. She's not a Lord at all. She's not the eldest born or the eldest born son. She's not the warden of the north. She has no legal rights in Westeros at all. It is as much her duty to kill him as it is Dareon's duty to fuck people in Braavos.

[Drogo]

I call BS. If you recall, by this point it has been impresed upon her that she was nobody, not a Stark, not Arya, etc... While she may have self-justified the killing as.a lawful execution, she killed him because she wanted to. Thus her blinding righht after.

She-s crazy as a bedbug.

It was pressed upon her and she tries to play the role but it doesn't stick. Why keep Needle if she doesn't think of herself as Arya or a Stark anymore? No. As long as she keeps Needle and keeps her prayer she is Arya. You are right that she had no reason to kill Dareon, until he revealed himself as having no intention to return to the Watch. Then he had to die in her mind as a deserter. Like you say why else kill him? She has not once, ever, shown to kill because she likes killing. The only death she got enjoyment from was the ticklers and even then she was sobbing by the end of it.

It was her duty specifically because she is a Stark. I don't know if it is everyone's responsibility to bring deserters to justice but it is known that Starks always will. As a Stark she was honor bound to kill the deserter.

[Talleyrand]

What about the guard at Harrenhal, all he was doing was obeying his orders and looking out for enemies and she goes and stabs him. She didn't need to kill Chyswick to survive she just wanted him dead.

And having a 7+ kill count seems a bit psychotic for a 9 year old

[Toe]

Not psychotic, but likely psychopathic. We know her internal though processes. Never does she worry about the killings being morally wrong or feel any remorse or empathy. What she does worry about is only getting caught or what other people will say if they find out. At one point she considered killing Gendry since he had found out that she was a girl but rejected this because she could not be sure of succeeding.

[Lord Varys]

That's just stupidity.

Even sentencing Weese's death was not justified, it was the deed of a somewhat power-mad (and stupid) maniac, considering herself to be the 'Ghost of Harrenhal'. Weese was not evil, he was just an annoying and somewhat sadistic boss, but he did not deserve to die in my opinion. Just because you are mean to your subservients, you don't deserve to be butchered by your own dog.

The Bolton sentry certainly did not deserve to die at all. He was completely innocent, and might have been a good and decent guy. And I don't understand why Arya had to get out of Harrenhal. She was not in mortal danger there, as far as I can see.

And her violence on the road, especially when she beat the boys up, was too much in the end. If Yoren had not intervened she might have severely hurt or killed them. That Yoren beat her up afterwards was entirely justified by the morals of Westeros.

The murder of Dareon is entirely unjustified as well. It was not her place to punish or execute a deserter of the Night's Watch. She is not the Ruling Lady Stark, and Braavos is not Winterfell. She had no right to do this, in my opinion. I understand why she liked and wanted to do it, but she had no right.

As to Sandor, I'm pretty sure Arya did not kill him because he wanted her to kill him. That was her reason to let him live. She says as much when she leaves him: 'You shouldn't have hit me with an axe. You should have saved my mother.' Had he done that, she might have given him the gift of mercy. But he did not, and so she leaves him to the four-legged wolves.

She is not sociopath either, in my opinion, but she has taken the first steps down a road an which end could very well be a female version of Bronn.

Oh, and by the way, I don't see the fact that Nymeria is still alive as a sign that they might be reunited, or that Arya might be saved. Nymeria's fate resembles Arya's fate. She is alone out there in the wild, and she has become a fierce and vicious beast.

I don't say she's irredeemable evil, that she has to die or something like that, but I do not consider her to be a good person, and I don't see her being able to return into her old life, or being particularly interested in trying to do this after she has finished her training. Using the coin and going to Braavos was a huge step. She is very much done with Westeros, her family, and her old life.

[overcomebyfumes]

Daeron isn't dead.

She was lying to the Kindly Old Man when she said she killed him. That's why she was advanced to the next level of training. She was finally able to tell the perfect lie.

She stole his boots tho.

[Drogo]

No, it was not.

She has no authority to kill him. She has no authority to even touch him. The only person that has a duty to kill him is lord that captures him and passes sentence. Note that she cannot even pass sentence here.

Heck, she's not even the eldest Stark!

You're basically saying that if Bran came across some deserters from the Wall he can just stab them. That's simply not true. That's not justice, that's certainly not his duty, and that's not what Ned would want regardless.

Now, she might have thought that it was her duty to kill him - but what 10-year old thinks 'hey, I need to kill that guy because it's my duty?' Actually that's a good point; when was she taught that she needs to kill deserters? She wasn't present when they caught any of them, and Bran had to be told then. Why would Arya even know? But let's assume she knew that rule. Why would she assume that it was her duty? Why not tell Sam, who is the person in charge (and she clearly knows)? Why not tell the ruler of Braavos?

Why does she take it upon herself to judge him and pass sentence on him?

And note that he almost certainly has no idea why he'd be killing her. Do you think that she stood there and said 'I, Arya Stark and Lady of Winterfell (which she is not) sentence you to die'? No.

She's not the Lord of Winterfell. She's not a Lord at all. She's not the eldest born or the eldest born son. She's not the warden of the north. She has no legal rights in Westeros at all. It is as much her duty to kill him as it is Dareon's duty to fuck people in Braavos.

but there is no Stark in Winterfell. There is no lord to pass judgment on the traitor. No one else cares. It doesn't matter to anyone else. But she is a Stark. That characteristic is the focal point for her and her siblings. As Starks they hold themselves and others to higher standard. One mostly gone from the world. Honor-bound and righteous. I'm 100% certain that Bran would order the death a Night's Watch deserter if he came upon one. I'd go so far as to say that Lyanna would do the same if she had had the chance. Not being the head of the family doesn't restrain you from carrying out the justice you knew would be passed regardless of who did it or when.

I've never believe that the Starks follow the rules of other houses with only the heads making decisions. Any Stark or Northmen of noble birth would've done the same as Arya.

[Xenophon]

but there is no Stark in Winterfell. There is no lord to pass judgment on the traitor. No one else cares. It doesn't matter to anyone else. But she is a Stark. That characteristic is the focal point for her and her siblings. As Starks they hold themselves and others to higher standard. One mostly gone from the world. Honor-bound and righteous. I'm 100% certain that Bran would order the death a Night's Watch deserter if he came upon one. I'd go so far as to say that Lyanna would do the same if she had had the chance. Not being the head of the family doesn't restrain you from carrying out the justice you knew would be passed regardless of who did it or when.

I've never believe that the Starks follow the rules of other houses with only the heads making decisions. Any Stark or Northmen of noble birth would've done the same as Arya.

Huh?

1) Why are you assuming that only the Starks punish NW deserters? I would assume all the lords in the Seven Kingdoms would execute a NW deserter, if they found him in lands where they had the right to pass the sentence.

2) Not being the head of the family means precisely that you have no right to pass judgment, IIRC. Only the lord has the right to judge in his domain.

3) Ned seemed pretty strict about following the letter of the law. I don't see why you think the other Starks would appoint themselves judge, jury, and executioner if this were against the law.

[Drogo]

Feel like im Garlan Tyrell. Four swords swinging at my head at once. yikes.

Varys: She was in mortal danger at Harrenhal. Bolton was leaving it to Hoat who was known to kill or mutilate his servants on a whim. Yea sticking around for that would've been a lot of fun. Killing the guard was a necessity to escaping and escaping was a necessity to staying alive and whole.

And I've never seen any indication that Arya enjoys killing Dareon. Or anyone else. Everything she does that connects to killing ties back into her feeling threatened personally. She wanted to kill Gendry cause if he found out she was Arya Stark who knew what he would do then? Like my first sentence in the OP says Arya is a survivor, not psychotic, not psychopathic, not a sociopath. A survivor.

These swords are coming close to taking my poor head.

[Xenophon]

Feel like im Garlan Tyrell. Four swords swinging at my head at once. yikes.

Lol

[Thelonious]

I call BS. If you recall, by this point it has been impresed upon her that she was nobody, not a Stark, not Arya, etc... While she may have self-justified the killing as.a lawful execution, she killed him because she wanted to. Thus her blinding righht after.

She-s crazy as a bedbug.

That would be more convincing if she'd just killed any random guy, but I don't think she has yet demonstrated the tendency to murder indiscriminately for giggles that would put her in the same 'psycho' category as Gregor Clegane or the Bloody Mummers.

Edit: Was Robb Stark psychotic? I'm willing to bet he killed more people than Arya, and his commands knowingly led to even more deaths.

[Drogo]

Huh?

1) Why are you assuming that only the Starks punish NW deserters? I would assume all the lords in the Seven Kingdoms would execute a NW deserter, if they found him in lands where they had the right to pass the sentence.

2) Not being the head of the family means precisely that you have no right to pass judgment, IIRC. Only the lord has the right to judge in his domain.

3) Ned seemed pretty strict about following the letter of the law. I don't see why you think the other Starks would appoint themselves judge, jury, and executioner if this were against the law.

Seems like the Starks are some of the only people who care about the NW at all. And what sort of judgment is called for in a NW deserter? There is no trial. The dude is a walking dead man. Why should it matter what lord or noble takes his head off? It's going to come off either way. Its not like a deserter will be sent back to the Wall. Where does it say that only the head of the house can execute a deserter? i feel like we've seen plenty of instances of heirs or family members ordering all sorts of people dead.

[Leofric]

The Bolton sentry certainly did not deserve to die at all. He was completely innocent, and might have been a good and decent guy. And I don't understand why Arya had to get out of Harrenhal. She was not in mortal danger there, as far as I can see.

I'm not sure if there was another way to get past the guard, I doubt Arya could have knocked him unconscious, and I doubt Gendry would be able to get close enough without the guard being suspicious. If the guard raised the alarm, they were dead if they were caught with the stolen horses and supplies. But all that is based on the main point as to why did they have to leave at all. Roose told Arya that he was leaving Harrenhal to the Goat and the Brave Companions, and leaving Arya to serve them. That's enough reason to want out of there as soon as possible.