Arya is not psychotic

[KyleLitke]

You're right, someone had called her a psychopath. Sorry. I think, however, that most people were arguing that she's disturbed but not full-out crazy bloodthirsty (although the argument seems to have taken a turn in that direction since our last exchange).

Kalbear's already explained why it's a fairly major technicality in the eyes of the law, but you seem to grant that anyway. So, the issue is 1) whether she's justified in killing him, despite it being extra-judicial, and 2) if she's not, does this make her bloodthirsty or a sociopath (I think we can all agree she'd be a murderer, if she wasn't justified in killing him).

Drogo, I think, first laid out the extreme pro-Arya case: that it's in fact her duty to kill Dareon, since NW deserters should be killed, and she couldn't be confident that any legal authority would ever punish him. In other words Arya is acting as a vigilante, and that makes her action justifiable. I take it this is also roughly your view? I disagree. Arya had no right to make this judgement herself. Regardless of her intentions, she unilaterally granted herself the power of life and death over this man, a decision that is both unjustified and dangerous.

So, in my view, Arya is a murderer. Whether it also makes her bloodthirsty or a sociopath, I'm not sure. It certainly shows that she is comfortable with taking a life. IMO, that's not bloodthirsty in itself, especially since it seems like Arya tried to justify her actions in her own mind. Whether it's sociopathic is a harder question. I'm inclined to say she's still walking the line, but she does seem to have moved from killing when absolutely necessary for her survival towards killing whenever it suits her purposes. She's not irredeemably evil, but she's become far too comfortable with killing to remain unscarred by it.

But again, you keep saying she's "judging him". He does not get a trial. There is no judgement. There is no comparable thing in our world to the Nights Watch, and I think it's confusing the argument as a result. If you desert from the Nights Watch, you are a dead man, period, done, no question. There's no judgement. Did she decide to be the executioner (or as you put it, the vigilante), yes. Was that the correct call for her to make? That's not for me to say, from a legal standpoint likely not (although I'm honestly not sure about that, it's entirely possible it isn't a crime at all to kill a Nights Watch deserter). But people keep saying she's choosing to be the judge or the jury, and she is not. Nights Watchmen are not "Well, if you're found guilty of desertion, then the penalty would be given". There's no "finding" anything. They don't get a trial. They don't get to say "Well, gee, I was totally going to go back". So is Arya making th decision that she will be the one to carry out the "sentence", yes, but she's not passing any judgement, that judgement existed the second Dareon decided he wasn't going back to the Wall.

To use an example (and even this isn't a great one but it's the best I can think of at the moment), let's say someone in the US is sentenced to Death Row. The night before their execution, they escape. You know that they were sentenced to die and that their death sentence was to be carried out the next day. You shoot that person. Are you legally in the right? No. But are you deciding to be the judge and jury of this person? No you're not, that was already done. Does it make you wrong? Quite possibly. Does it make you a sociopath? That, I'm not so sure.

And that's not even a good example because in the modern day, you'd be able to just call the police and have them come pick him up.

Like I said, I do think Arya has issues. But I don't agree that she had no cause to do what she did with Dareon, no justification as others have said, and I don't agree that she's choosing to act as judge and jury in THAT case (it's possible she is in other cases).

[inkasrain]

I think Arya's issues manifest themselves less in her actions than in her reactions. Even if we accept her assassination of the Harrenhal guard and Daeron* as justified, isn't it a bit worrisome that both her approach and response to the killings is so... non-existant? Even Ned, no stranger to delivering justice and death, needed time to process his indisputably legal execution of Gared at the start of the series-- but Arya's recent killings leave her with no residual emotion to recover from.

Obviously, the horrors Arya has seen and experienced have left her emotionally callused, and understandably so. But I don't necessarily think this is a natural step to being able to kill in as casual and emotionally sterile manner that Arya can and does. I certainly can't and won't diagnose her as psycho/socio/whatever-pathic, but as her situation currently stands, I wouldn't count myself as particularly optimistic that Arya will eventually be capable of interacting with the world on any other platform than a cold-blooded killer.

_{* Shamelessly covering my bases just in case Daeron is, for some authorial reason, not dead.}

[Kalbear]

But again, you keep saying she's "judging him". He does not get a trial. There is no judgement. There is no comparable thing in our world to the Nights Watch, and I think it's confusing the argument as a result. If you desert from the Nights Watch, you are a dead man, period, done, no question.

Except that Ned could have forgiven the deserter if he wanted to; this is clear in the book and in the show. He DOES have that authority.

One does not have to have a trial to judge. We judge all the time. The important thing is not a trial - it is the SENTENCING. That is something only a Lord can do in their land.

But people keep saying she's choosing to be the judge or the jury, and she is not. Nights Watchmen are not "Well, if you're found guilty of desertion, then the penalty would be given". There's no "finding" anything. They don't get a trial. They don't get to say "Well, gee, I was totally going to go back". So is Arya making th decision that she will be the one to carry out the "sentence", yes, but she's not passing any judgement, that judgement existed the second Dareon decided he wasn't going back to the Wall.

She's choosing the sentence. Again - the penalty for desertion is death, but it's much like the penalty for thieving is losing a hand or the penalty for rape is castration. That doesn't mean you get to go around and chopping off someone's hand if someone steals from you and call it justice, or you can go and castrate random rapists. There is a law, and there are people who have the authority to carry out that law, and Arya is in now way that person.

Arya more than most understands this. She just doesn't care. It doesn't matter to her that she doesn't have legal authority. It doesn't matter that they're not even in Westeros. She just chooses to kill him. Yes, you can say that she did it because she feels deserters should die no matter what, but isn't it a bit odd that an 11 year old is going to kill deserters just because? Is that normal?

[Dornish]

Arya's moral code is at least as moral as that of the rest of Westeros. It succeeds and fails in different areas, but I don't see her as being significantly any more or less moral overall than the rest of society.

[Kittyhat]

I think at this point, we're all just going to go back and forth needlessly. It's reaching the point of repetition, or that's how it seems to me at least. So I'll just say in closing the following:

First, some of you seem very fixated on the legal angle. "Arya shouldn't have executed the deserter because it's not her job." Well and good as far as it goes, and from a legal perspective, you probably have a point. I'm just not sure what the relevance of it is to the question of Arya's mental stability, unless you mean to assert that anyone who bends or violates a law in some way is by virtue of that alone unstable. In that case, I'll just have to say I disagree, and I really don't see the basis for your belief in that.

Then there's the "Arya is a nutjob" camp. I simply don't agree. I've read your arguments, and I'm not on board with them. Cersei is a nutjob. She imagines Tyrion popping out of holes in the ground to kill her and her children and suspects virtually everyone of some kind of treachery without any justification. She's paranoid, delusional, and in my highly inexpert opinion, a psychopath.

Arya is damaged goods with emerging sociopathic tendencies who's become highly desensitized to violence, but she doesn't seem to have become an indiscriminate killer. Everyone she's killed has either deserved it, or she seems to have felt cornered into it, right or wrong.

I do think she's at a crossroads, with the potential to wind up going down a very, very dark path. I don't think she's reached a point of no return yet.

But hey, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

[Elrick]

Personally I totally agree with the original poster. I don't see a sociopath because if she was she wouldn't have tried to save Jaqen or the other thugs and let them burn. Sociopaths have no morals where thats concerned and would have actually got aroused by doing what she does. There's a harshness to her thats been developed by what she was forced to witness and go through.

I think she's a survivor and in my opinion is justified in everything she did. A much better example of a sociopath is Jaime or Cersei. Yes I include Jaime in this one as no one just pushes a boy out the window like he did. Maybe he's changing but I think the circumstance of losing his hand has forced him in that direction. On another note you could say that all of Martin's characters tend to show a sociopath or cruel streak to themselves.

[Kalbear]

Sociopaths have no morals where thats concerned and would have actually got aroused by doing what she does.

Yeah, that's complete bullshit and a clear misunderstanding of the term 'sociopath'. Try again.

[alguien]

Depends on the sociopath. A sociopath wouldn't necessarily care about family dying - but they could also use it as a specific motivation. And it would be because they chose to, not because society demands it.

I guess I thought a sociopath might use it as a motivation--IF there were gains to be made for them. But pure vengeance as a motive? That's more of a Monza Murcatto emotional state. Would you count her as a sociopath?

In general I'd caution against making too many assumptions of what a sociopath would or wouldn't do. Being sociopathic doesn't mean that you do whatever you choose however you choose; it simply means that you have a distinct lack of empathy and a distinct disconnect between societal norms and your views.

Granted, I'm basing what I posted before on what little I can remember from my psych undergrad degree and also some conversations with my best friend's wife, whose job it was to evaluate convicts on whether they were psychotic or psychopaths.

It's by no means clear cut, but along with what you said, IIRC sociopaths have trouble feeling emotion. Any emotion. I don't think that's Arya, really. She's fiery. Sociopaths are also often extremely self-centered. That is their primary motivation and they'll follow society's norms unless its inconvenient to do so. Arya's motivations, her ritualistic chanting of people she want's dead for example, while disturbing, are less about herself and more about getting vengeance for her family.

A sociopath might have killed Dareon for his boots. Or they might have killed him because they wanted more of the whores. Or they might have killed him because deserters sicken them. Or they might not have killed him at all. Or they might kill because it gets them in with their secret awesome killing academy. The point here is not the killing, it's having that as an option on the table and not caring about it or thinking on it after. Its the ability to say 'ya know, killing and pretty much anything I want to do? Is totally fine' regardless of what society thinks.

See, I think Arya's killing of Dareon is an example of how her adventures have left her with a distinctly disturbing worldview, but when she specifically said Arya Stark killed Dareon--to me that's not sociopathy. That's something akin to child soldier phenomena like we've seen in Africa. Its a messed up attempt to cling to her identity. Its a kid saying, "Well daddy used to do this. He's gone. So I should." Its messed up, but I don't feel comfortable calling it pathological. Again, I have trouble with the term, because its modern-connotations. To me it means lack of empathy, lack of emotion, and extreme narcissism. I just don't see Arya like that.

But to take it further, IIRC, one can't be diagnosed with anti-social personality until they're 18. So I would say the seeds are there for it. I guess I've always considered it genetic disorder, but now that I think about it, I'm sure that environment causes play a factor as well. In which case, Arya's behavior seem very much a product of her environment rather than biological (unless you count wolf blood).

Another thought on empathy... see to me, the ability to warg is all about empathy. :dunno:

ETA: interesting, I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and found this quote:

The official stance of the American Psychiatric Association as presented in the DSM-IV-TR is that "psychopathy" and "sociopathy" are obsolete synonyms. The World Health Organization takes a similar stance in its ICD-10 by referring to psychopathy, antisocial personality, asocial personality, and amoral personality as synonyms for dissocial personality disorder.

So I recommend we change the thread title to "Arya does not have a dissocial personality disorder." :)

[Kalbear]

It's by no means clear cut, but along with what you said, IIRC sociopaths have trouble feeling emotion. Any emotion.

no, they have trouble feeling EMPATHY. They can feel happy or sad, and folks with APD often feel happy or sad in very extreme ways. They'll go fairly far to get more happy and get less sad too; a lot of sociopathic behaviors come from drug addicts.

Sociopaths are also often extremely self-centered. That is their primary motivation and they'll follow society's norms unless its inconvenient to do so. Arya's motivations, her ritualistic chanting of people she want's dead for example, while disturbing, are less about herself and more about getting vengeance for her family.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. For instance, the Hound is on her list entirely because of Mycah. The Tickler is on her list because of the random people he tortures that have nothing to do with any of her family. Amory as well. Polliver got on her list because he stole her sword. Most of the folks on her list were put there after she saw Ned die, and most were put there because they directly fucked with her in some way.

See, I think Arya's killing of Dareon is an example of how her adventures have left her with a distinctly disturbing worldview, but when she specifically said Arya Stark killed Dareon--to me that's not sociopathy. That's something akin to child soldier phenomena like we've seen in Africa. Its a messed up attempt to cling to her identity. Its a kid saying, "Well daddy used to do this. He's gone. So I should." Its messed up, but I don't feel comfortable calling it pathological. Again, I have trouble with the term, because its modern-connotations. To me it means lack of empathy, lack of emotion, and extreme narcissism. I just don't see Arya like that.

That's assuming Dareon's death was about her killing him because he was a deserter, and wasn't actually about her making a lie about Arya killing him (and taking Arya's motivations for killing him, at least to some degree). Ugh, that's a horrible sentence. What i"m trying to say is that she might not care that he's a deserter, but she needed someone to kill and needed a reason for Arya Stark to kill someone. In this case it might be her shedding her identity more than her clinging to it, using it like one uses a shirt.

I do agree that she's a lot more like the child soldier than a true sociopath, but most folks don't know about the child soldier thing.

[alguien]

no, they have trouble feeling EMPATHY. They can feel happy or sad, and folks with APD often feel happy or sad in very extreme ways. They'll go fairly far to get more happy and get less sad too; a lot of sociopathic behaviors come from drug addicts.

That sounds correct. I think I was just remembering one of college papers I wrote about serial killers, how sometimes their motivation in killing was simply so that they could feel something. But that actually is more in line with what your stating above.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. For instance, the Hound is on her list entirely because of Mycah. The Tickler is on her list because of the random people he tortures that have nothing to do with any of her family. Amory as well. Polliver got on her list because he stole her sword. Most of the folks on her list were put there after she saw Ned die, and most were put there because they directly fucked with her in some way.

Sure, perhaps to expand, what I mean is that its about avenging wrongs done to her and her loved ones--which I don't necessarily think is selfish. One could certainly argue that vengeance is a selfish desire--however, in the North it seems to be considered a worthy motivation. Remember, she grew up hearing stories like the Rat Cook where while it was totally unacceptable to violate guest right, it was OK to murder a man's son and put him in a pie since "a man had a right to vengeance." (man Old Nan would have been a fun nursemaid)

Anyway, I thought Polliver was on her list because he stabbed Lommy through the stomach? Interestingly enough, doesn't she forget about the Hound on her list?

That's assuming Dareon's death was about her killing him because he was a deserter, and wasn't actually about her making a lie about Arya killing him (and taking Arya's motivations for killing him, at least to some degree). Ugh, that's a horrible sentence. What i"m trying to say is that she might not care that he's a deserter, but she needed someone to kill and needed a reason for Arya Stark to kill someone. In this case it might be her shedding her identity more than her clinging to it, using it like one uses a shirt.

Yeah, if what you posed it true, that is quite a bit more disturbing. Which is impressive, because her killing Dareon was disturbing enough.

[Kalbear]

Want to get all technical smartass? Well how about psychotic that is in itself a misleading statement because someone who is psychotic is delussional, hears voices, etc. A sociopath which is not used anymore is someone who has no morals in the conventional sense and has no problems breaking the law and indeed some if not many actually get sexually aroused in killing others aka serial killers. Most aren't however serial killers but all sociopaths have one thing in common no morals and tend to break the law.

I agree - which is why almost no one has said she was psychotic and at best she suffered a psychotic episode when she stabbity stab stabbed the Tickler.

Criminal sociopaths do not have 'no morals'. They have their own code of morals. Those don't tend to fall in line with societal morals. Other sociopaths have shown distinct codes that they follow, though they're almost entirely self-inflicted. IT also doesn't mean get sexually aroused while killing people. Is that why people object - because they think psychopath and associate that with Norman Bates masturbating to his mom?

That being said - Arya absolutely breaks the law left and right. She's got no issue with illegal killing, no issue with stealing, and no real problem breaking any law that doesn't suit her as long as it gets her what she wants.

On Polliver and Lommy - I thought Raff killed Lommy. I could be wrong. One of 'em was on the list because of Lommy, and the other was because of Needle.

[Alexia]

TBH, I always thought that Arya killed Dareon because she was angry that he would not be taking her to the Wall. I don't think it had anything to do with justice, or with punishing him for his crimes, or fulfilling the role of the Stark in Winterfell (which she is not, and said Stark doesn't have jurisdiction in Braavos anyway). She was angry that he wouldn't take her where she wanted to go.

[damian]

Lol at the idea that "it wasn't really her duty because she isn't a lord" means she's pyscho while all the men in charge get off scott free for the shit they do. What an adolescent mindset.

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk

[Xenophon]

TBH, I always thought that Arya killed Dareon because she was angry that he would not be taking her to the Wall. I don't think it had anything to do with justice, or with punishing him for his crimes, or fulfilling the role of the Stark in Winterfell (which she is not, and said Stark doesn't have jurisdiction in Braavos anyway). She was angry that he wouldn't take her where she wanted to go.

That's a really interesting idea. I'm not sure I buy it. Her telling the KM that it was "Arya of House Stark" who killed him makes me think that she viewed it in terms of justice, i.e. that she was taking it upon herself to execute a NW deserter (not that she had the right to do so).

Lol at the idea that "it wasn't really her duty because she isn't a lord" means she's pyscho while all the men in charge get off scott free for the shit they do. What an adolescent mindset.

What a non-adolescent post!

[Ranzadule]

"Sociopath" did no exist in our Earthly language until the mid-20th Century, right? I doubt low-fantasy medieval people care. The people of Westeros also seem to be blissfully unaware of psyho-babble as well as other ills we suffer in modern society thanks to lawyers, psychiatrists and social workers. :)

[Elrick]

I agree - which is why almost no one has said she was psychotic and at best she suffered a psychotic episode when she stabbity stab stabbed the Tickler.

Criminal sociopaths do not have 'no morals'. They have their own code of morals. Those don't tend to fall in line with societal morals. Other sociopaths have shown distinct codes that they follow, though they're almost entirely self-inflicted. IT also doesn't mean get sexually aroused while killing people. Is that why people object - because they think psychopath and associate that with Norman Bates masturbating to his mom?

That being said - Arya absolutely breaks the law left and right. She's got no issue with illegal killing, no issue with stealing, and no real problem breaking any law that doesn't suit her as long as it gets her what she wants.

On Polliver and Lommy - I thought Raff killed Lommy. I could be wrong. One of 'em was on the list because of Lommy, and the other was because of Needle.

I appologize about the smartass comment... I was a little peevish today. :)

Some sociopaths do follow some form of code but its usually a limited code. BTW Arya very well could be developing those tendencies due to witnessing her fathers beheading, etc. I just don't think that she's there yet.

[Theon Greyboy]

While I agree with everything you said about her kills (the people she killed definitely deserved their fate), I still think she's psychotic.

Why? The key here isn't the fact that she's killed people - many of the series' most honorable characters have high body counts. I honestly feel that the reason she comes off as a sociopath to many readers is her extremely violent thought process. Whenever faced with a (human) problem, her initial thoughts are almost always something along the lines of "Oh, I should just kill the fucker." Granted, straight up chopping your adversaries to pieces is certainly an efficient method of getting ahead in ASOIAF's world, but her eagerness to "resort" to violence can often make her seem like a sociopath.

[Demandred]

Is it possible that there is some 'leakage' between the Warg bond that Arya and Nymeria hold? In that some of Nymeria's instincts and morality (for lack of a better word) were feeding into Arya? I mean, coupled with all the shit that Arya has had to go through.

Whatever the case, I see Arya as a tragic figure. Everything she's had to go through, the emotional and physical trauma. And to see how she finds a release makes it even more so. She is unhinged to some extent.

After experiencing so much, I hope that Arya can still get back on track and jump back over the Moral Event Horizon.

[Theon Greyboy]

Is it possible that there is some 'leakage' between the Warg bond that Arya and Nymeria hold? In that some of Nymeria's instincts and morality (for lack of a better word) were feeding into Arya? I mean, coupled with all the shit that Arya has had to go through.

I think it's definitely possible. All of the Starks seem to share some personality traits with their wolves, and Arya is probably no different. Also, didn't Jojen mention something to Bran about the dangers of warging too long? Something about the line between him and his wolf being erased?

[Ranzadule]

It is worth mentioning that Arya is a child. She does not and should not have a fully developed conscience at her age. A toddler would kill someone for a cookie. Arya is not old enough to vote, enter into contracts, be tried as an adult for most if not all, crimes. I agree that she is a bit dark, but the entire series is dark. The people of Westeros are dark and Arya's recent life has pushed her into a survival mode. She may not fully respect the law as her father was "lawfully" executed and to her, Ned and Syrio was the only honorable men in Kings Landing. She also loved them both.

I am rereading in preparation for the new book. I will try to think about Arya in the light most favorable to the other side that some of you have eloquently argued and I will see if that changed my mind. I am not very far along yet, only to the part where Ned executed Lady.