[ADwD Spoilers] Winterfell Crypt

[History of Westeros]

All Starks are buried in the crypts, only lords and ladies (and kings/queens) get statues. This has already been pointed out, even with the quote from the books. Some people keep posting as if this wasn't clear and certain, so I decided to reiterate. :)

[Puzzle]

While I know that it gets warmer the deeper you go, there HAS to be something going on down in the lower levels of the crypts. I mean every time they (the lower levels) are mentioned in the books some little hint-like tidbit of info is thrown in with it. Maybe a hibernating ice dragon, or dragon eggs, or something concerning Jon's ancestry. I don’t know, but I can't wait till GRRM unveils the mystery behind them. They fascinate me to no end.

Yeah I agree. Jon constantly dreams of the Winterfell crypts; there definitely seems to be something there that he is drawn by. At first I thought that it was just Lyanna being buried there, but maybe there is something more. I never thought of the dragons theory- it is an interesting tie between Jon's link to the crypts (assuming R+L=J holds true) and the constant mention of the warmth of the crypts. And the fact that the crypts were brought up again in ADwD reinforces my belief that there is a secret in the crypts.

[tze]

Yeah I agree. Jon constantly dreams of the Winterfell crypts; there definitely seems to be something there that he is drawn by. At first I thought that it was just Lyanna being buried there, but maybe there is something more. I never thought of the dragons theory- it is an interesting tie between Jon's link to the crypts (assuming R+L=J holds true) and the constant mention of the warmth of the crypts. And the fact that the crypts were brought up again in ADwD reinforces my belief that there is a secret in the crypts.

In AGOT, Bran mentions that the ground wasn't leveled before Winterfell was built, and that's why the place is such a maze---you can have walkways leading between two different stories, for example. Between the crypts, the lack of leveling, and the fact that we know weirwood roots run deep, it sounds like Winterfell is basically built upon a hollow hill. And we know there are deeper levels that nobody visits (the story is that they've collapsed, but I seriously doubt that's true).

Bran saw greenseers "entombed" on weirwood thrones in Bloodraven's hollow hill, and they weren't technically dead (their eyes moved when they saw Bran-as-Hodor). The Stark family produced half a dozen skinchangers in a single generation, so they've already beaten the odds there----what are the chances that they've produced a greenseer or two within the past 8,000 years? I think it's pretty likely that there are greenseers on weirwood thrones deep beneath Winterfell, and Jon is being "called" down there because he's destined to be a greenseer too. (Didn't he have a dream where Bran pulled him into a weirwood tree?)

[CrypticWeirwood]

Bran saw greenseers "entombed" on weirwood thrones in Bloodraven's hollow hill, and they weren't technically dead (their eyes moved when they saw Bran-as-Hodor). The Stark family produced half a dozen skinchangers in a single generation, so they've already beaten the odds there----what are the chances that they've produced a greenseer or two within the past 8,000 years? I think it's pretty likely that there are greenseers on weirwood thrones deep beneath Winterfell, and Jon is being "called" down there because he's destined to be a greenseer too. (Didn't he have a dream where Bran pulled him into a weirwood tree?)

Where was that? Was it early on? I don’t remember it.

The interesting thing about the greenseers on the weirwood thrones beneath Bloodraven’s hollow hill is that they were even less um perky than Bloodraven himself. I think they have been there a very, very, very long time. And I suspect that the immortality of the weirwoods, which live forever if not cut down, is pumped into the greenseers so long as they stay connected to them. When the Andals cut down the weirwoods in the south, this quite literally killed any greenseers plugged into them down below in their roots.

I keep thinking of Nimuë trapping Merlin in an enchantment within a tree beneath a hollow hill, to sleep that way forever.

[Jackol]

One thing that always struck me as not making sense about how people talked about the crypts was the way it was explained that the lower levels had older kings buried in them.

If you're making an open-ended crypt, you would start putting tombs near the entrance/surface, and extend it back/down, not the other way around. I mean you could hypothesize about some prediction that they would need X amount of space for Y kings and plan ahead, but honestly why bother?

Going back to check, it's possible that this is only a theory of the children - the first reference I can find is in GoT when Maester Luwin, Osha and Bran go down into the crypts following Bran's dream, and the narrative says:

The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried.

I seem to recall this theory of 'older kings' is mentioned at other times, and it always stood out as not making sense. Now, given some of the theories in this thread, it makes me wonder if it was deliberate misdirection from GRRM - there is something else in the levels below, not old Kings of Winter...

[pixie30]

All Starks are buried in the crypts, only lords and ladies (and kings/queens) get statues. This has already been pointed out, even with the quote from the books. Some people keep posting as if this wasn't clear and certain, so I decided to reiterate. :)

To back you up:

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern.The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children.

[hotweaselsoup]

In AGOT, Bran mentions that the ground wasn't leveled before Winterfell was built, and that's why the place is such a maze---you can have walkways leading between two different stories, for example. Between the crypts, the lack of leveling, and the fact that we know weirwood roots run deep, it sounds like Winterfell is basically built upon a hollow hill. And we know there are deeper levels that nobody visits (the story is that they've collapsed, but I seriously doubt that's true).

Bran saw greenseers "entombed" on weirwood thrones in Bloodraven's hollow hill, and they weren't technically dead (their eyes moved when they saw Bran-as-Hodor). The Stark family produced half a dozen skinchangers in a single generation, so they've already beaten the odds there----what are the chances that they've produced a greenseer or two within the past 8,000 years? I think it's pretty likely that there are greenseers on weirwood thrones deep beneath Winterfell, and Jon is being "called" down there because he's destined to be a greenseer too. (Didn't he have a dream where Bran pulled him into a weirwood tree?)

The almost-dead greenseers reminded me of the House of the Undying - same sort of ancient parasites tapped into some central life force.

I forgot that Winterfell was built on a hill, or series of hills. I agree that there is much going on underground in Westeros that we're at present not aware of. Isn't "Children of the Forest" an Andal name? Don't they call themselves "singers of the earth", or something like that? So, not so much wood elves, but morlocks? :D

[CrypticWeirwood]

I think it's pretty likely that there are greenseers on weirwood thrones deep beneath Winterfell, and Jon is being "called" down there because he's destined to be a greenseer too. (Didn't he have a dream where Bran pulled him into a weirwood tree?)

Oh my. Considering the condition that Jon was left in at the end of Dance, that takes on way interesting possibilities!

[CrypticWeirwood]

The almost-dead greenseers reminded me of the House of the Undying - same sort of ancient parasites tapped into some central life force.

I took them as the antithesis to the Undying. Those Undying warlocks of Quarth seem like the sickening parasites, whereas the greenseers seem plugged into the inherent lifeforce of the weirwoods in a completely healthy and self-sacrificing way. The Undying drain the life from their young prey. The greenseers out of altruism give up their own well-earned eternal rest that they might guard the land of living from beneath the weirwoods in their hollow hills forevermore. Compete opposites.

[hotweaselsoup]

I took them as the antithesis to the Undying. Those Undying warlocks of Quarth seem like the sickening parasites, whereas the greenseers seem plugged into the inherent lifeforce of the weirwoods in a completely healthy and self-sacrificing way. The Undying drain the life from their young prey. The greenseers out of altruism give up their own well-earned eternal rest that they might guard the land of living from beneath the weirwoods in their hollow hills forevermore. Compete opposites.

I just noted the parallels. I'm not yet ready to give one side or the other the white hats. The word "parasite" has negative connotations, but I meant it in the neutral sense.

ETA: the weirwoods/greenseers seem to need blood sacrifice, which is not very altruistic.

[The Snowman]

The crypt is quite fascinating and its depth. I think that something is down there that Jon must see/find. He 'is' a baseborn Stark raised in Winterfell, the resting place of all the Lords and Kings of the North would've had something to do with his childhood. Would be interesting if there was something in or around Lyanna's tomb. Surely Jon would go down there if/when he makes his way to Winterfell. He does keep dreaming about it.

On the underground river idea below the crypts going all the way back beyond the wall, its not a totally absurd idea. How far is it from Winterfell to the Wall? There is a cave system in the US that runs for close to 400 miles so why cant there be an underground network under parts of westeros? It is fantasy, why can't 400 miles in the real world mean 800 in a fantasy world where there happens to be dragons and magic and trees that are sort of divine in nature.

Why be limited by logic when we have fire god magic bringing people back to life, oh did i mention fire breathing dragons or frozen dead people walking around.

[Lord of Insignificance]

Take the Dimholt road...Starks do no wight, they come back as undead warriors for good, that was the sacrifice Bran saw in his flashback. They Stark came back as an undead super warrior (cold hands style). Jon has to go into the crypts and raise and army. Set the ranger aside, be the king you were destined to be! lol Just saying...

[SerDuck]

I liked the theory in another thread that basically goes:

1) Manderly confided the existence of Rickon to Dustin (note she says the same "North does not forget comment.").

2) Part of the story that Manderly gives is that Wex overheard that the Stark kids were hiding out in the crypt for a while. Possibly even Wex seeing that they had old rusty swords.

3) Lady Dustin goes to the crypt to confirm the truth of Manderly's story. She is looking for evidence that people were living there. Missing swords may be additional confirmation if that was part of the story from Wex to Manderly to Dustin.

4) The backstory about Brandon, while true, was just an excuse to go down there to Theon and also served to distract him from her casually looking around for signs of habitation.

This seems like a really good theory. It would be weird for GRRM to dedicate precious pages of his novels to pointless things like Lady Dustin looking at Brandon and Ned's graves. She definitely had ulterior motives for going down there.

[BronnJonBronson]

Eddard Stark also buried his brother Brandon in the crypt, along with their sister Lyanna. Brandon should not have been buried there, either, as he was not Lord of Winterfell, only the heir.

technically brandon was lord of winterfell for the very short time between his father burning alive and his own death.

[MtnLion]

technically brandon was lord of winterfell for the very short time between his father burning alive and his own death.

I have always had it that Brandon strangled himself while his father took longer to complete his roasting.

[vleeter]

I like the idea of, and the plausibilty of, the customary dragon egg for baby Targs being in Lyanna's tomb with an inscription for Jon.

[dreamcatcher]

I like the idea of, and the plausibilty of, the customary dragon egg for baby Targs being in Lyanna's tomb with an inscription for Jon.

This IS pretty plausible, and considering Dany's (in)ability to control all three dragons and the likelyhood of two of them being stolen by Victarion, dying, etc.. It would just be nice to have another dragon.

However, it'd grow too slow. So if Jon did get a dragon egg of his own, it'd be purely for sentimental purposes, like giving his son an egg, or breaking it in pieces, or whatever.

I still think there's a possibility that a real adult dragon is sleeping somewhere beneath Winterfel. That'd be also nice.

[dreamcatcher]

That's it. She wanted to see where Brandon lay, and she wanted to see the place where Eddard Stark's bones were supposed to go so that she could feel her somewhat vicious triumph more keenly when she intercepted those bones and prevented them from being put where they belonged. She absolutely hated Eddard.

Um, are you sure? Like, George-told-you sure or just your opinion? Because everything in that chapter screamed 'Lady Dustin is a liar' to me, even on the first read.

[Lyse Stark]

In AGOT, Bran mentions that the ground wasn't leveled before Winterfell was built, and that's why the place is such a maze---you can have walkways leading between two different stories, for example. Between the crypts, the lack of leveling, and the fact that we know weirwood roots run deep, it sounds like Winterfell is basically built upon a hollow hill. And we know there are deeper levels that nobody visits (the story is that they've collapsed, but I seriously doubt that's true).

Bran saw greenseers "entombed" on weirwood thrones in Bloodraven's hollow hill, and they weren't technically dead (their eyes moved when they saw Bran-as-Hodor). The Stark family produced half a dozen skinchangers in a single generation, so they've already beaten the odds there----what are the chances that they've produced a greenseer or two within the past 8,000 years? I think it's pretty likely that there are greenseers on weirwood thrones deep beneath Winterfell, and Jon is being "called" down there because he's destined to be a greenseer too. (Didn't he have a dream where Bran pulled him into a weirwood tree?)

I have a really weird notion... What if Jon was meant to be a greenseeing King of Westeros? If this is so, then maybe he might not go in the crypts to stay there. He may have to remain above ground, and some of the greenseeing power may be weakened as a result. So in a a weird kind way, Jon may not be the kind of greenseer that the CoTF, Blood raven, And Bran is, since his duties would require Jon be mobile.

[Stark bannermen]

Did I miss something? Why did Lady Dustin want to go into the crypt, it seems she went inside, did nothing, and then left.

Did she only go inside to see Brandon's grave?

I think lady dustin just wanted to find the entrance.