[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 13

[Gabriel Gubert]

I had to put the book down after reading that...complete shock. I can't believe he is dead, nope, won't believe it.

I have to wonder about Ramsay's letter..Jon has always kept to his NW oath forsaking his family so that didn't make sense. I wonder if it's a plot to lure the Boltons towards the Wall so Stannis can storm Winterfell unawares?

that makes sense

[Robb_]

Hopefully the next chapter opens with Ghost ripping out Wick's throat.

I don't care if it's happened too many times before, Jon must live and go through with his plan to take on Ramsay.

[The Answer]

Guys and girls, I honestly think it is really obvious that Jon has warged into Ghost to end his last chapter. And he will somehow be brought back, most likely by Mel.

There is a few main reasons why I think it's so obvious.

1-the prologue and Jon's 1st chapter concerned warging.

2-In Bran's 1st chapter, he mentions the bite of cold he gets when he wargs into Summer. And when Jon get's stabbed a 4th time, he doesn't feel the blade, "only the cold." Meaning he's already warged..

3-Jon Snow just cannot be dead!

[Gabriel Gubert]

yeah. i think he'll return to his body in someway, as some have said, keeping it intact under the frozen cells. (but who'll do that? Mel? the brothers?)

[Ironwood]

Unfortuneatly, Jon needed to die. If not he would have destroyed the Nights Watch.

[The Answer]

yeah. i think he'll return to his body in someway, as some have said, keeping it intact under the frozen cells. (but who'll do that? Mel? the brothers?)

I think it has to be Mel. And I think it will releive Jon of his duties to the nights watch. Which will eventually lead him to the Iron Throne.

[The Answer]

Wow here's another reason why Jon will surely be brought back. And now more than ever I think he'll come back as Azor Ahai!

Page 408, Melisandre:

"Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half revealed and half concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

[Horny Eunuch]

GRRM continues to puzzle readers. Good. I wouldn't want it any other way. :devil:

Ok, really good takes and very high probability of Jon not really dead. I'd like to see how the Song goes without Jon in the last chapters though. Jon has been on so many chapters that we now expect something to come out from him. be it Azor Ahai, marry Daenerys, get reborn, be the saviour of the realm, etc.. etc... but with Jon out of the picture, who will take his place? It seems a lot more interesting to me if he's not in it anymore. That alone can already give us hope that this series will continue to maybe a seventh book.

Back to Westeros... It's just awesome to think about what you guys think and they all do have great insights. Me, I just want to read more of this Song. :drunk:

What intrigued me more was what some forum members say about Ramsay's letter. It seems legit. But then, Mance is a clever little Crow and it did not occur to me before I read this topic to think it maybe him who wrote it. Seems interesting. He was with Ramsay for a while and so he can at least mimic what Ramsay would say (or write). I don't think the part about Stannis and Theon coincides though. Stannis will be bugged by the bank of Braavos and the info of Theon (and Asha, if they had escaped with Tris) should be known to Stannis (Though it could be Ramsay killed Stannis before inquiring about Theon, which is unlikely I'd say). I might be missing something but if it's so, and Mance did write the letter to goad Jon, then this will probably be a plot with Melisandre. Either to help Jon be aware of his surroundings or to achieve something yet unrevealed. I am thinking of course that we all agree the great possibilty it was really Ramsay.

Another thing, I don't think Jon warged into Ghost before the 4th stab. He felt cold, while Ghost was locked in a room (or at least it seemed).

Man, this makes my head ache in a good way.

[Kellyline]

No!

Wow, what a popular thread. 18 pages!

[Roboginger]

I am kind glad he died, and hope he stays dead, every prediction anyone has involves Jon. i want the story to be unpredictable.

[podrick_payne45]

:(

[MotherStark]

So, Im trying to think of the aftermath here. Here's WUN WUN tearing up ser patrek, then Jon is stabbed by NWs. When he is dead you got Tormund there and 1000s of wildlings....what do you think will happen to the men of the NW??? they would be just as dead. so I'm wondering if Bowen stabbed Jon on purpose so he COULD get out of his vows. so that he won't get beheaded, maybe he stabbed him "just right"..I don't konw.. I mean do you really think they would kill JOn in front of EVERYBODY (mostly Wildlings) unless the Wildlings were "in on it"...I just don't think Tormund or Leathers or any of em would allow Bowen and the others to walk away like nothing..so there is much more to this. I screamed out in pain after reading this chapter..thats twice (Robb being the first).. I don't want an UNJon..I want Jon to be Jon. But I'm not the author and I can't will George to my cause.

anyway something is amiss here...Bowen tearing up? don't get it. If he wanted Jon dead, he would've done it quietly and blamed WUN WUN. why do it publicly.

[The Answer]

So, Im trying to think of the aftermath here. Here's WUN WUN tearing up ser patrek, then Jon is stabbed by NWs. When he is dead you got Tormund there and 1000s of wildlings....what do you think will happen to the men of the NW??? they would be just as dead. so I'm wondering if Bowen stabbed Jon on purpose so he COULD get out of his vows. so that he won't get beheaded, maybe he stabbed him "just right"..I don't konw.. I mean do you really think they would kill JOn in front of EVERYBODY (mostly Wildlings) unless the Wildlings were "in on it"...I just don't think Tormund or Leathers or any of em would allow Bowen and the others to walk away like nothing..so there is much more to this. I screamed out in pain after reading this chapter..thats twice (Robb being the first).. I don't want an UNJon..I want Jon to be Jon. But I'm not the author and I can't will George to my cause.

anyway something is amiss here...Bowen tearing up? don't get it. If he wanted Jon dead, he would've done it quietly and blamed WUN WUN. why do it publicly.

Here's my take.

I think people around Castle Black like Bowen Marsh and the Queen may have noticed Jon and Tormund becoming friendly. Bowen, looking for an excuse to kill Jon, found it when he declared to march on Winterfell.

Bowen could have discussed this with the Queen, and maybe asked for help from her Queensguard to kill wunwun. Because with WunWun, the Wildlings are still a threat to the Night's watch. even without their weapons.

My prediction:

There won't be any suspense as to whether or not Jon lives or dies. He'll have an early chapter in The Winds of Winter. He'll wake up in the Queens Tower with Melissandre by his side. She'll explain what took place after he was stabbed. Tormund rallied his wildlings and they take on the Night's Watch. Hundreds of dead litter Castle Black, and the Night's Watch is pretty much finished..... From there I don't know.. haha but I seriously see this happening.

[Free Man]

Well, the only thing that makes me think he is still alive, or will be brought back is the fact that Mellisandre saw him in the flames when she wanted to se Rhlor.

AND we never got an explanation on who his mother was? Why else include the Reeds? Just for Bran? Unlikely Imho

[Thoros of Ders]

It's very possible that GRRM decided to kill Jon simply because he would have been the next best defense (after the Wall of course) to stop the Others and his fellow Night's Watchmen had a perfect motive.

There are also a lot of theories that Jon isn't actually dead and we will see him again. This is very possible because we've seen GRRM do that exact same thing with Brienne and Asha where we're left to believe that they've died but instead see them show-up and change the pace of the story.

Personally I think GRRM would focus more on Jon's warg-ness. The book opened up with a prologue on how crazy the Skinchanger was and placed a lot more importance on this supernatural ability especially when dealing with death and the transfer of the the soul to the closest animal (or human) body. It would make sense for the Night's Watch to go after Ghost and kill him next (the Frey's did the same with Grey Wind) which would completely kill my theory but who knows.

[Plume]

Just finished the book... A bit shocked at what happened to Jon. I didn't go through all this long thread but people probably mentioned this:

Jon might be healed by Melissandre the way Victarion was healed by Moqorro the priest they fished out of the ocean...

Victarion's hand was ash and dark but stronger than it ever was.

So, when Jon's healed, his wounds would be charred and with ashes too.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong, this is just a thought. GRRM really tortures his readers. And I keep asking for more haha

[Myrcella]

Much as I hate it, Jon is dead. Mel saw him with a bunch of skulls in a fire, and I agree that the prologue was a hint at him becoming his wolf.

[Gabriel Gubert]

i don't think Mel will let anyone get close to the wolf, she really knows his importance and power, and considers it an ally in a way.

[Lpearce7]

I know this is a small reason to believe Jon will not be dead, but after the first wight attacked CB and tried to kill the Old Bear, Jon burned his hand pretty bad and Maester Aemon fixed him up and told him to keep flexing his sword hand, even after it had healed. As we all know Jon does this throughout the last 4 books. I always thought that that would somehow save Jon's life later. But when he tried to grab Longclaw, his fingers fumbled and he couldn't pull it out.

I just don't think GRRM would waste so much time telling us "Jon flexed his hand" for it to turn out all that practice was for naught

[Free Man]

Well, I have re-read the chapter, from what I understand:

- 4 knives:

- knife 1 - Jon avoids it, small slash on neck, twists attacker arm during second attempt (tries to unsheathe Claw, but fails)

- knife 2 - Stabs him in the stomach

- knife 3 - Stabs him between the shoulder blades (now this one seems pretty serious, it is a very bad region for a Stab wound). He groans, falls to the ground

- knife 4 - he does not even feel knife no.4... So, who stabs him? Is knife no.4 even a stab? If so, where? Could it be someone cutting through his clothes to tend to his wounds?

It says he felt only the cold. Well... the fact that he feels at all is probably a good thing. Now, from what I know, extremely cold weather can actually be beneficial, as it narrows the veins and reduces blood flow (Falkland war as opposed to VIetnam, people survived lying injured for days untill medics arrived, while in Vietnam most died within hours).

That being said, the stomach wound could probably be healed by the red priestess, while knife no.3 is probably deadly, unless it avoids vital organs. Without further info, I`d say he is still alive at the end of the chapter. Dying or not - he still feels. Now, whether he dies or not, that seems totally wide open, with chances are more inclined to him dying (which is again, not certain).