[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II

[Uyulala]

She's either Ashara or she's nobody. All the other people she could be are just too irrelevant and not worth hiding her identity.

Completely agree. Also, I would like to say that the theories against Lemore being Ashara based on the different descriptions are not pretty solid considering one description comes from a man who was in love with Ashara and the other one... well, comes from Tyrion.

[Jon Snow - The Promised]

- Ashara's dead, everyone knows it even though they explicitly never found a body. :rolleyes:

In all fairness I understand what you are saying but similarly, we never found Arya's body and she is presumed dead - however, we know she isn't...

[Ghost Rider]

If it is Ashara:

- She COULD be alive, because all behind her death is mysterious (+no body)

True, but that seems to be the only valid argument.

- She mysteriously became old-looking, and major part of her beauty disappeared (possible, but need good explain)

A woman in her mid thirties seems to me very unlikely to have lost such a great deal of her beauty. It is not unknown to talk of women that age as beautiful.

- Tyrion talking of her eyes would make her personality too obvious to us, Martin's decision is explainable

Certainly possible from an author's point of view, but incredibly cheap since Tyrion's never fails to mention female eye colors. It's unfathomable why he would omit the most striking feature of Ashara Dayne, just to keep some author's mystery.

- I still see no good reason behind her "fake suicide". NOTHING is book show us her as possible part of any major plan, everything is just speculation.

To be fair, there's no good explanation for the suicide so far, just that it is a mystery, usually connected in the story to some tragic love story (see Ned Dayne or Cersei). Where there's a mystery there should be a solution. It's therefore possible she faked the suicide to accompagny "Aegon". However I think it more likely that her suicide (wheter faked or real) is somehow connected to the events at the ToJ. (no reason, just a gut feeling. :))

- She has no known reason to work for Targs/Golden company/Varys/Illyrio, all theories are just specualtion with no single real motive behind it

Honestly, I must wonder at Jon Connington, that he comtemplated working with Varys/Illyrio at all, but of course he Does have a reason. Ashara? Why would she possibly trust Varys/Illyrio? For all we know she can't have been part of the "switch" of toddlers at King's Landing since she seemed to have been at Starfall. I don't think she was first in King's Landing, escaped from there to be faster in Starfalls than Ned.

Or do you guys think, the "switch" happenened even before anyone could have possibly have any notion that it could be necessary thus giving Ashara the time to go from King's Landing to Starfalls?

Lyanna:

- Ned was not only one man who have seen her dead, Robert was at her body for few hours... Do you think Robert was part of "lets move Lyanna to free cities" plan? ;)

There's no way she is Lyanna, she should look like a Stark and Tyrion should mention that. (he does so with Jon.) Robert did see Lyanna dead? Hey, I had always thought he didn't see her and thought she had died way before Ned came to the ToJ. Otherwise why would he suspect no children since he already "knew" she was raped. And she was there for how long? Hehe, my respect for his ability to put together 2 and 2 and come up with 4 really decreases.

Anyway there's no way Ned would think she was dead when in reality she wasn't. I also don't see her as a Targ Loyalist working for "Aegon". She has her own son to think of.

[ishmael]

Or do you guys think, the "switch" happenened even before anyone could have possibly have any notion that it could be necessary thus giving Ashara the time to go from King's Landing to Starfalls?

I believe the switch happened well before it was apparent. Rhaegar was a smart man that seemed to plan most things out. Or at least, he planned things about the prophesy. I also believe that things at the TOJ went much differently than we have been lead to believe. She was free to move around during the war. She was not limited to only being at one place throughout the war that lasted a year.

[Dragonfish]

A woman in her mid thirties seems to me very unlikely to have lost such a great deal of her beauty. It is not unknown to talk of women that age as beautiful.

Lysa went from very pretty in her youth to very ugly in her thirties. So I honestly don't see why Ashara couldn't have gone from "beautiful" to "handsome" in the same timeframe, especially if she had a hard life.

[lezboyd]

Some people said the Same thing about Lyanna... didn't they? At least if I'm not mistaken Arya is said to posess a similar beauty to Lyanna's... a kind of "wild beauty".

I always took that as a reference to her attitude rather than her looks. Ned does confirm Lyanna as beautiful in that same scene. Here is the quote from AGoT that I think you are referring to:

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

[lezboyd]

Lysa went from very pretty in her youth to very ugly in her thirties. So I honestly don't see why Ashara couldn't have gone from "beautiful" to "handsome" in the same timeframe, especially if she had a hard life.

Its not that hard a life to spend time riding on a boat with 2 caretakers, instructing a young boy in ways of the Faith. Why are her fellow passengers not so negatively affected? Why does Young Griff not look haggard? Please don't tell me she had allergies now! This hard life thing is stretching speculation to its limit, IMO.

[Tammy]

Lysa went from very pretty in her youth to very ugly in her thirties. So I honestly don't see why Ashara couldn't have gone from "beautiful" to "handsome" in the same timeframe, especially if she had a hard life.

The main thing that keeps me from believing that Lemore is Ashara is that Connington thinks of her as Lady Lemure. He thinks that he's grown fond of her. But he danced with her at the Harrenhal tourney, so he knew Ashara.

Since he knows her why would he think of her as Lady Lemore in his own thoughts?

[Dragonfish]

Its not that hard a life to spend time riding on a boat with 2 caretakers, instructing a young boy in ways of the Faith. Why are her fellow passengers not so negatively affected? Why does Young Griff not look haggard? Please don't tell me she had allergies now! This hard life thing is stretching speculation to its limit, IMO.

Has Septa Lemore always been with them? I can't remember if she has.

The main thing that keeps me from believing that Lemore is Ashara is that Connington thinks of her as Lady Lemure. He thinks that he's grown fond of her. But he danced with her at the Harrenhal tourney, so he knew Ashara.

Since he knows her why would he think of her as Lady Lemore in his own thoughts?

He doesn't refer to her as Lady Lemore in his own thoughts. It's the narrator who says "he had grown fond of Lady Lemore." Not Connington's internal monologue.

[Galen M]

He doesn't refer to her as Lady Lemore in his own thoughts. It's the narrator who says "he had grown fond of Lady Lemore." Not Connington's internal monologue.

Have we ever had an instance where the narration has less knowledge than the character whose chapter it is? We've had cases of omission and things like Reek/Cat/Alayne, but not like that.

[Dragonfish]

Have we ever had an instance where the narration has less knowledge than the character whose chapter it is? We've had cases of omission and things like Reek/Cat/Alayne, but not like that.

The narrator regularly refers to Connington as "Griff" and Aegon as "Young Griff", in the very same chapter in which Lemore is called "Lemore." Though I don't think it's really a case of the narrator knowing less than the POV as it is a case of the narrator using the names by which the characters are regularly called.

[Galen M]

The narrator regularly refers to Connington as "Griff" and Aegon as "Young Griff", in the very same chapter in which Lemore is called "Lemore." Though I don't think it's really a case of the narrator knowing less than the POV as it is a case of the narrator using the names by which the characters are regularly called.

right, that was the point i was trying to make, though I thought the narration always called YG "Aegon" once it was revealed. Guess I need to reread, terrible memory on the style and grammar, since I only did a marathon read when it was released.

[Tammy]

The narrator regularly refers to Connington as "Griff" and Aegon as "Young Griff", in the very same chapter in which Lemore is called "Lemore." Though I don't think it's really a case of the narrator knowing less than the POV as it is a case of the narrator using the names by which the characters are regularly called.

You're right it is referred to like that. It just seemed off to me. Like he'd only known her in this phase of his life and not from before. In the same paragraph where his fondness is mentioned though Aegon is referenced as "the prince." He is referred to as Griff by the narrator though.

I suppose it could be explained that he had grown so accustomed to his new identity and the others new identities that he even thought of them or referred to them by their taken names.

[lezboyd]

Has Septa Lemore always been with them? I can't remember if she has.

You can't remember 'cause it isn't mentioned in the books. Same way it isn't mentioned whether she always has. It is pure speculation, and that is my point! But if you read the Lemore topics in the forums, the speculation is that she faked her death for the purpose of joining her present company. So why not assume that she has always been there? In which case, it is not that hard a life to change her from pretty to handsome!

My problem with Lemore=Ashara is that it is hinged on assumptions made outside the content of the books, like her having a hard life, which I find hard to swallow.

[TheEvilKing]

Hey guys, long time lurker and first time poster here. The mystery around Septa Lemore has really got me intrigued. I've got a crackpot hunch I'm gonna throw out there. Although I think it's highly likely that we're going to meet Ashara Dayne and possibly Tysha at some point (at least I hope we do...) I think Lemore is .......Wenda the White Fawn. I know...I know. Who? What? To my recollection Wenda was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood who captured Merret Frey and branded him. We don't really know too much about her other than she was in the Kingswood Brotherhood with Simon and Terrence Toyne (relatives of Myles Toyne ...of the Golden Company?) Possibly a reason why she could've ended up in the free cities. Lemore talks about Aegon not being the only one who needs to hide and it seems to me that the outlaw White Fawn would have good reason to stay hidden. Also, we don't know much about her or her fate....was she killed or captured? What strikes me is that much as GRRM hinted several times throughout the earlier books (particularly ASOS and AFFC) about Jon Connington...foreshadowing his appearance in ADWD, he does the same kind of mentioning with the White Fawn. Is it possible that Varys spirited Wenda out of Westeros in exchange for her agreeing to tutor Aegon. Is it possible that she was in fact a septa before joining the Kingswood Brotherhood (sort of a female friar tuck.....) and that the white in White Fawn is actually from her septa's robes? I'm even going to take this crackpot theory one crack further and suggest that Wenda the White Fawn and Tyene's septa mother could possibly be one and the same (which could be a reason for her to have joined the Brotherhood ....disgraced septa gives birth to a bastard daughter and is forced from the faith....?) I know...I know. Pretty thin... but I just can't shake the feeling that the several mentions of the White Fawn (in Merret's chapter and I believe a Jaime chapter or chapters) were completely pointless because it feels just like the Connington foreshadowing. Thanks for listening! (Feels good to finally post!)

I like it. I'm bored of the Ashara theory, and she's very likely not Elia or Lyanna. I don't think she's as important a character as that. Wenda the White Fawn makes a lot of sense to me.

[Urien the Ragged]

nm

[Urien the Ragged]

i second the white fawn theory. the character seemed too interesting to be done with this story.

the moment of truth will come when Barristan sees her. if she's Ashara or the White Fawn, we'll know at that point. come to think of it, Jaime would know the White Fawn as well.

[lezboyd]

And if Selmy does not recognize her, she is LF's spy! :P

[DaemonSand]

Septa Lemore = the White Fawn. It is known.

[corbon]

My problem with Lemore=Ashara is that it is hinged on assumptions made outside the content of the books, like her having a hard life, which I find hard to swallow.

The problem here is the ridiculous assumption that an attractive young woman must have had a hard life to only be a 'handsome' older woman nearly 20 years later. :rolleyes:

There is no assumption that Ashara-Lemore has had a hard life at all.

Ashara was nowhere described as beautiful in the first place.

She was described as 'fair', meaning attractive, and appears to have been vivacious and fun.

Barristan, who was in love with her, claims she 'put Elia in the shade' or something similar (and Elia is elsewhere described as reasonably attractive too), but that is comparing an attractive and lively young woman with a sickly and weak woman who has already had two kids, so it is not necessarily about pure 'beauty'.

Further, Lemore is certainly not (for now, and presumably the last 15-odd years) a pampered noblewoman with no greater duties than to make herself as attractive as possible. She is a 'working Septa', roughly equivalent to a nun-teacher. Now how many nun-teachers outside of hollywood are 'beautiful' into their late 30s or 40s? Virtually none. But handsome? yes.