[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II

[Jesstadreamer]

I was sold on her being Ashara, but could she be Lyanna? A stretch, but what if Lyanna really didn't die and made Ned promise not to tell, so she and her baby (Aegon-not Jon) were secreted away. She would have known how furious Robert would have been and that her baby's life would be forfeit. Or Jon is her child, but it was better for her to disappear and he would be safe with Ned. If any of these are true- then what would Ashara/Lyanna/Mystery woman think about Ned's death and all the crazy happenings?

Thing is with Aegon supposedly being alive and switched- now even more crackpot theories can surface :)

[Wellspring]

I think she's Illyrio's wife, Serra. Having dyed her hair brown, she now instructs Aegon in the faith. If she has some other reason to want to be with Aegon at all times, the masquerade would suit her purposes perfectly. And Lord Connington might well not realize who she really is.

[Jennavere]

I think she's Illyrio's wife, Serra. Having dyed her hair brown, she now instructs Aegon in the faith. If she has some other reason to want to be with Aegon at all times, the masquerade would suit her purposes perfectly. And Lord Connington might well not realize who she really is.

Except that Connington refers to her as Lady Lemore instead of Septa Lemore at one point. Leading the reader to believe that he knows exactly who she is.

[pixieil]

I am more in favor of her being Tyenes mother. Just because Tyene and her mother have been minor players thus far doesn't mean they will stay that way. Also, for all we know Prince Oberyn's Septa was Elia's personal Septa who knew Elia, and Rhaegar and their children. It is possible that the penalties for promiscuity in the Faith are severe with no statute of limitations. If so, Oberyn's Septa, Tyene's mother, might have good cause to conceal her identity because the penalty is still hanging over her head. But if Tyene goes to Kings Landing, she and her mother could become important in ways that none of us has even thought about.

[iamthedave]

Thing is with Aegon supposedly being alive and switched- now even more crackpot theories can surface :)

Everyone in the entire series - even the dead ones - are Jaqen H'Ghar. Simultaneously.

It is known.

[Brucolac]

I am more in favor of her being Tyenes mother. Just because Tyene and her mother have been minor players thus far doesn't mean they will stay that way. Also, for all we know Prince Oberyn's Septa was Elia's personal Septa who knew Elia, and Rhaegar and their children. It is possible that the penalties for promiscuity in the Faith are severe with no statute of limitations. If so, Oberyn's Septa, Tyene's mother, might have good cause to conceal her identity because the penalty is still hanging over her head. But if Tyene goes to Kings Landing, she and her mother could become important in ways that none of us has even thought about.

It makes more sense for Lemore to just be Lemore then to be Tyene's mother. Why would he expound on on the mother of a character who has only a few sentences. Whoever she is, she is not the mother of a practically non-existent character, and if she is that is a sign of how utterly lost GRRM has gotten in his own work. If he really is branching off so much as to bring in the parents and history of even his most insignificant characters this series is even more mired down than I thought.

[pixieil]

Well, you could be right.However, what would we have said if someone had suggested, after AFfC. that we would soon know more of the exiled, drunken, thieving uncle of Red Ronnet Connington, Briennes tormentor? Would you have asserted that he is such a minor character that his uncle couldn't possibly be of interest having warrented only a few sentence in the course of 4 massive books? I would have agreed with you. That is why I say it isn't wise to dismiss a character as unimportant when we really don't know if that is true or if we just have not been allowed to see thier importance as yet.

[Blizzard]

Are we told what age Lemore is, I thought she was around her early thirites because Tyrion had a thing for her. Also we haven't heard much about her since.

[corbon]

Are we told what age Lemore is, I thought she was around her early thirites because Tyrion had a thing for her. Also we haven't heard much about her since.

Tyrion thinks she must be at least 40.

But he is not a good judge of ages on what we have seen so far.

And women between 30 and 50 can be notoriously hard to tell their age accurately just from a look. Especially given the greatly varied possible lifestyles.

Our best estimate for Ashara's age would be late 30s, possibly early 40s - more probably late 30s (we don't have any age for her, just who she danced with and that she was newly made Elia's handmaid around that time). Lyanna would be early 30s.

[Spidey]

What about Wylla, Jon's wetnurse? Wasn't there another kid that she nursed?

[mpbarnes]

What about Wylla, Jon's wetnurse? Wasn't there another kid that she nursed?

You're thinking of Edric "Ned" Dayne, who Arya meets in ASOS. There's no reason for Wylla to be Septa Lemore, just like there's no reason for Tyene's mother or the White Fawn to be hanging out with Aegon & Jon Connington. What does make sense is that Ashara faked her death and took care of Aegon after Varys spirited the baby away, Connington was brought in later. Both Ashara & Connington are well known to have been great friends to Rhaegae and Elia, they are well known to many people still alive and can vouch for the authenticity of Aegon.

[CrypticWeirwood]

You're thinking of Edric "Ned" Dayne, who Arya meets in ASOS. There's no reason for Wylla to be Septa Lemore, just like there's no reason for Tyene's mother or the White Fawn to be hanging out with Aegon & Jon Connington. What does make sense is that Ashara faked her death and took care of Aegon after Varys spirited the baby away, Connington was brought in later. Both Ashara & Connington are well known to have been great friends to Rhaegae and Elia, they are well known to many people still alive and can vouch for the authenticity of Aegon.

I think you’ll still have a chain of evidence problem.

[Wouter]

What does make sense is that Ashara faked her death and took care of Aegon after Varys spirited the baby away, Connington was brought in later. Both Ashara & Connington are well known to have been great friends to Rhaegae and Elia, they are well known to many people still alive and can vouch for the authenticity of Aegon.

That's all nice and fine if Aegon really is Elia's son. If he isn't (which I find very likely to be the case), then the "great friends to Elia" angle doesn't work terribly well. She would have to be duped along with Connington into believing Aegon is Elia's son, and she would also need to have been found by Varys and/or Illyrio first. Considering (IIRC) Ashara was at or near Starfall when Ned was there to bring back her brother's sword (and no doubt, to deal with the fallout of Jon being born), she is not a self-evident choice for someone to involve in a (supposed) baby swap at KL, especially not if Illyrio only came up with Aegon a couple or so years later.

Ashara appears to have either killed herself, or gone into hiding if she is still alive, for another reason not related to Aegon, much like Connington went into exile for other reasons. Is it possible that Varys or Illyrio not only found Connington (quite easy, he was in the Golden Company at the time) but also Ashara, wherever she had been hiding? Maybe it is, but it needs to be considered where she went, why she then faked her own death in the first place and how she was found to be duped like Connington was.

[Jesstadreamer]

Everyone in the entire series - even the dead ones - are Jaqen H'Ghar. Simultaneously.

It is known.

Or BloodRaven.

[mpbarnes]

I think you’ll still have a chain of evidence problem.

Please do point it out, because from my vantage point all available evidence points to Ashara, strongly.

That's all nice and fine if Aegon really is Elia's son. If he isn't (which I find very likely to be the case), then the "great friends to Elia" angle doesn't work terribly well. She would have to be duped along with Connington into believing Aegon is Elia's son, and she would also need to have been found by Varys and/or Illyrio first. Considering (IIRC) Ashara was at or near Starfall when Ned was there to bring back her brother's sword (and no doubt, to deal with the fallout of Jon being born), she is not a self-evident choice for someone to involve in a (supposed) baby swap at KL, especially not if Illyrio only came up with Aegon a couple or so years later.

Ashara appears to have either killed herself, or gone into hiding if she is still alive, for another reason not related to Aegon, much like Connington went into exile for other reasons. Is it possible that Varys or Illyrio not only found Connington (quite easy, he was in the Golden Company at the time) but also Ashara, wherever she had been hiding? Maybe it is, but it needs to be considered where she went, why she then faked her own death in the first place and how she was found to be duped like Connington was.

I'm of the mind that Aegon is exactly who he says he is, but I'll play along for a moment. Now, if Aegon is not actually Rhaegar & Elia's son, do you think that Connington knows it? Given the love he clearly had for Rhaegar, why would he bother with a pretender if he knew it was not truly his son? Aegon not being who he says he is doesn't have anything to do with Connington or Ashara, they clearly believe Aegon is Aegon Targaryen. If Varys is playing a game with them, after 15+ years, you think two people who were intimately connected to R&E would have some professed doubts about Aegon's legitmacy. In Connington's POV chapters they don't have any doubts at all. So either they have no idea that Aegon is fake, or Aegon is legit. Either way, it only supports the Lemore=Ashara argument.

Besdies, in thinking about what we know about these storylines, can you think of a better pair of people to care for the supposedly dead (real/fake) Aegon? Connington a great friend to Rhaegar, Ashara a great friend to Elia, both knew his parents, both would likely recognize the baby, both are well known figures in Westeros people who were around from that time recognize them. The other people mentioned as Lemore (Tyene's Septa Mother, The White Fawn, even Lynna), don't make nearly as much sense as Ashara does for this role.

If Lemore's sole purpose was to instruct Aegon in the faith, why don't they just leave her behind once he makes it to Westeros. Instead, she's with the company, right to the end. And at the end in his POV Connington repeatedly refers to her as "Lady Lemore" never again as Septa, even after she's put the Septa robes back on when they arrive at Griffin's Roost.

[Taelorn]

I think she's Illyrio's wife, Serra. Having dyed her hair brown, she now instructs Aegon in the faith. If she has some other reason to want to be with Aegon at all times, the masquerade would suit her purposes perfectly. And Lord Connington might well not realize who she really is.

So to follow this line of though, Aegon was not switched at birth, and is the son of Illyrio's and Serra, making him a Blackfyre, not a Targ. If you subscribe to the theory of the KL baby switch (key dramatic Soap Opera music), then she is more inclined to be Tyene's mother.

[corbon]

I think you’ll still have a chain of evidence problem.

Evidence:

1. Varys says he switched baby Aegon and arranged for his education.

2. Lemore is a major part of Aegon's education

3. Ashara Dayne was Elia's handmaid and her brother Rhaegar's closest friend and confidante, so she was reliable, available, known to Varys and knew baby Aegon already (and he knew her).

4. Ashara supposedly committed suicide by diving into the sea (but they never found her body). Lemore is an excellent swimmer. Aegon had to get to Essos by ship - and perhaps that ship was offshore when Ashara jumped...

5. Ashara was supposedly 'dishonoured' and bore a bastard stillborn child. In our world analogue societies that would have made her unsuitable for a high marriage and her likely life-path would have involved religious orders - while she was pregnant at least, and possible long term. Thus, some amount of religious training, enough for her to pass as a false septa.

6. Ashara and Lemore share the same dark brown hair colour.

7. Ashara knew Connington - she danced with him at Harrenhal and were both in the Targaryen inner circle.

8. Ashara seems to have been a vivacious and attractive young woman. Nearly 20 years later, Lemore is an attractive and vivacious older woman.

9. Connington thinks of Lemore as 'Lady' indicating noble birth (backed up by her education and confidence around noblemen).

10. Stretch marks, on a Septa

11. Lemore apparently has a need to hide her identity - which works more for her being Ashara than anyone else.

12. Tyrion's avoidance of describing her eyes - a cheap trick by GRRM (though at least he covers it by having Tyrion somewhat 'distracted' at the time), but otherwise it is too easy.

13. Ages match well, given Tyrions known inability to estimate ages accurately (both other times he's guessed he's been wrong by 10-20%) and Ashara's unknown actual age anyway (best estimate 36-42).

I can't think of any other theory outside R+L=J which has nearly as much connective evidence.

So what is the chain of evidence problem?

[Wellspring]

Ashara is possible... but Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes, which are very distinctive. Kind of cheap for someone with such cleverness and a sharp eye to miss something so obvious. AND, considering he put two and two together for Aegon's eyes in the same scene.

One mark in favor of the Ashara theory: she swam naked in the Rhoyne and didn't seem embarrassed by her nudity. That's very Dornish of her. Much as Barristan believes that Ned dishonored her, I very much doubt that Ashara was a maiden even at Harrenhal. Another mark in favor: she'd recently had a stillborn daughter... and so might have made a good wet nurse to baby Aegon.

But if his internal monologue was intended to reveal that he knows her true identity, why not think of her as "Lady Ashara"? Wouldn't he refer to any highborn lady as "Lady"? Whether or not he knows her? He might know she's not really a septa, but that doesn't mean he knows her real identity (even if he thinks he does). A false septa fits perfectly with a false maester-- Illyrio and Varys want to be sure that the Grand Maester or High Septon don't find out from someone beholden to them.

If Lemore is really Serra, then Connington certainly wouldn't be told who she really is.

[Wellspring]

Ashara is possible... but Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes, which are very distinctive. Kind of cheap for someone with such cleverness and a sharp eye to miss something so obvious. AND, considering he put two and two together for Aegon's eyes in the same scene.

One mark in favor of the Ashara theory: she swam naked in the Rhoyne and didn't seem embarrassed by her nudity. That's very Dornish of her. Much as Barristan believes that Ned dishonored her, I very much doubt that Ashara was a maiden even at Harrenhal. Another mark in favor: she'd recently had a stillborn daughter... and so might have made a good wet nurse to baby Aegon.

But if his internal monologue was intended to reveal that he knows her true identity, why not think of her as "Lady Ashara"? Wouldn't he refer to any highborn lady as "Lady"? Whether or not he knows her? He might know she's not really a septa, but that doesn't mean he knows her real identity (even if he thinks he does). A false septa fits perfectly with a false maester-- Illyrio and Varys want to be sure that the Grand Maester or High Septon don't find out from someone beholden to them.

If Lemore is really Serra, then Connington certainly wouldn't be told who she really is.

[Brucolac]

Ashara is possible... but Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes, which are very distinctive. Kind of cheap for someone with such cleverness and a sharp eye to miss something so obvious. AND, considering he put two and two together for Aegon's eyes in the same scene.

GRRM can't list her eye color if it is her and he wants to keep her identity secret from readers still, which he obviously did to a certain extent or he would have revealed who she was when griff and aegon were revealed. The fact that Tyrion doesn't notice her eye color doesn't mean anything because if it is who we think it is, Martin couldn't include it and the fact that he didn't in a book where he is literally including every thing is telling in itself.