[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II

[corbon]

Seems that the only logical choice, as evidence has thus far indiciated, is that Septa Lemore is Tyene's mother.

Not really possible. Tyene recalls visiting her mother in Westeros while Septa Lemore was with Jon Connington in Essos.

Sorry about your rep. :cool4:

[Brucolac]

The mother of a minor character with the build up for Lemore's hidden idenity is laughable. If that were the case, she would still be with her as Tyene's mother has no known reason to remain hidden from the eyes of the seven kingdom. Everything in the text points to her being Ashara Dayne, and even GRRMs avoidance of the question in interviews backs that up.

The text that stands out in Lemore discription is: I have need to remain hidden too to Aegon, hinting at either being more wanted or a coconspirator, age, lack of body for Ashara, motive, oh and not to mention flirtatious eyes of unmentioned and forgotten color. He might as well have called them laughing purple eyes.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

Daeny's mother supposedly died in childbirth, but what if she really didn't?

Where was Lemore supposedly going? To Daenerys to set her up with a good high-born husband and bring her back to Westeros. Just thing kind of thing a mother would want for her daughter.

[Brucolac]

It would be impossible for him to come up with a reason why a mother would let her two children roam around as orphans while being on the same continent with them and their whereabouts basically being common knowledge. Lemore has been with Aegon for longer than Jon Connington, who has been with him for something like 10 years I think.

[The Great Cornholio!]

It would be impossible for him to come up with a reason why a mother would let her two children roam around as orphans while being on the same continent with them and their whereabouts basically being common knowledge. Lemore has been with Aegon for longer than Jon Connington, who has been with him for something like 10 years I think.

Happens everyday.

[icantstandgreyjoys]

OK so we actually have this:

"As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar."

From SSM and here is the link: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

It dates back to July 11, 1999, when there was no Aegon or Septa Lemore in sight, so this part exists in the forums but in the "Ned+Ashara=Jon" discussions mostly. It is kinda an old topic right now and I'm posting that for people that were unaware of it's existence.

Regarding this piece of info, especially him stating that she was a companion of Elia means he had some plans about that I think, like AEGON. Doesn't really say anything about him being a fake one or real. I think that Lemore believes he's real. Ashara would too, she'd be the mother-side JonCon.(Although I believe that he is fake.)

And Septa Lemore steps in, and in the same book we suddenly learn that Ashara was a brunette too? And she really had given a birth? Interesting.

I was not a Lemore=Ashara fan. But I feel like I am becoming one.

By the way what does he meant by horses/boats stuff?

And if she's really Ashara, what is her purpose anyways?/What does she knows that can be revealed?

[Fire Eater]

I think the theory that Lemore is Wenda the White Fawn carries the most weight.

People recall her violet eyes whenever the think of her, and Tyrion would have mentioned that if he saw her.

If it were Tyene's mother, how could Doran and the Martells not know about Aegon whilr Tyene's mother does? ALso Arianne recalls visitng Tyene's mother in the Reach, and Lemore has been instructing Aegon since he was a boy. She can't be in two places at once.

It is never mentioned of what happened to Wenda the White Fawn. Lemore would have been in her early twenties around the time, and Wenda the White Fawn was described as young and fair. Also, as another poster noted, Wenda could have gotten "white" in her name from the white robes septas wear.

[dark sister]

Sometimes I feel like even if Lemore's eyes were described as "dark blue" or "purple", this descriptor would not even confirm her identity as Ashara Dayne, but rather sprout even more theories about who she might be like a bunch of mushrooms under a dark tree. We'd get anything from Lemore=Ashara (theory #1) to she is another Targaryen, Blackfyre, Wylla the Wet Nurse, etc. etc. :P

[Rolex Baratheon]

Some people say she isn't Ashara because she is described as more 'handsome-pretty than 'beautiful'. That's wrong. Guys remember that Ashara by now is like in her 30s or 40s as is Lemore and all women get a different kind of good looking aspect to them at this age.

Another point in favour of the Lemore = Ashara theory, for me, is the fact that I have a huge crush on Lemore. And I also have a huge crush on Ashara. xD

[MtnLion]

Another point in favour of the Lemore = Ashara theory, for me, is the fact that I have a huge crush on Lemore. And I also have a huge crush on Ashara. xD

That's just hormones, you probably have a crush on Asha, too. :P

[Lightstar]

Never thought of the White Fawn. Brilliant.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I think if she was ashara tyrion would of figured it out. He guessed who jon con and aegon were. The white fawn idea is at least new. But why would some random outlaw be traveling with a prince down the rhoyne dressed as a septa. That's like the most random idea ever. But I don't see why she would dress in her outlaw get up. It seems she dresses as a septa in disguise, and wears normal clothes at other times. That doesn't add up to me and neither does her getting involved with such a big cover up. I don't see how jon con would trust thhe outlaw. Unless varys provided her as extra security. But she isn't ever armed >_<

[corbon]

I think if she was ashara tyrion would of figured it out. He guessed who jon con and aegon were.

JonCon and Aegon are the Boss and the Key, so Tyrion actually thought about who they might be. He explicitly thought Septa Lemore had secrets but he just didn't care about them.

And there is no reason he would figure out Lemore as Ashara either. Ashara Dayne is a minor nobody in history whom Tyrion never met. JonCon was Hand of the King and had a famous part to play in the rebellion (and didn't really try to hide who he was - "Griff") and Aegon is, well, in direct line to the throne of the last dynasty and as a child famously had his head smashed in and was unrecognisable - by Tyrion's own Dad's men!

[Zupoleon]

JonCon and Aegon are the Boss and the Key, so Tyrion actually thought about who they might be. He explicitly thought Septa Lemore had secrets but he just didn't care about them.

And there is no reason he would figure out Lemore as Ashara either. Ashara Dayne is a minor nobody in history whom Tyrion never met. JonCon was Hand of the King and had a famous part to play in the rebellion (and didn't really try to hide who he was - "Griff") and Aegon is, well, in direct line to the throne of the last dynasty and as a child famously had his head smashed in and was unrecognisable - by Tyrion's own Dad's men!

Agreed, mostly. I think Martin purposely has Tyrion describe Lemore in vague terms (i.e. no eye color) so as to leave some mystery. I don't think he totally doesn't care about who she is, it's just that as you say, piecing together the Griff / Young Griff mystery was his first priority. Tyrion recognized early on that Lemore was hiding some things; given the chance, he definitely would've made an effort to piece that together as well...

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I'd agree since he was with them only through the entire rhoyne. I just think if she was as important as ashara dayne former suicide comitee, He'd of chanced it together, I.e. purple eyes similar to valyrians he would probably think something that noticeable matched or was similar to aegon's. Which if he didn't think of ashara or some dayne, he would think aegon's mother. Maybe it was purposefully vague so it could become huge thing in the next book. But in the chapters with jon con he completely overlooks her character as if she's not too important either. Maybe I should go back and look for clues in his chapters but I didn't notice anything major.

Maybe she is wylla jon's milk mother.

[Cliche Guevara]

i'm almost convinced that she's ashara dayne. the physical descriptions make sense, she has motive to care for a baby she believes is aegon (for all we know she may not have even been in KL between his birth and the sack, so she wouldn't necesarily know if he was real or fake), and the circumstances of her death are sufficiently mysterious to allow for fakery.

i only have one question left: why wouldnt she reveal her identity once they landed in westeros? both connington and aegon have dropped their fake identities at this point, why would ashara need to remain hidden?

[Jem]

i'm almost convinced that she's ashara dayne. the physical descriptions make sense, she has motive to care for a baby she believes is aegon (for all we know she may not have even been in KL between his birth and the sack, so she wouldn't necesarily know if he was real or fake), and the circumstances of her death are sufficiently mysterious to allow for fakery.

i only have one question left: why wouldnt she reveal her identity once they landed in westeros? both connington and aegon have dropped their fake identities at this point, why would ashara need to remain hidden?

I think that she is waiting for the right time. Possibly once Aegon is almost ready to claim the throne she will step forward to reveal herself to verify his claim. Maybe she is afraid that if she reveals herself too soon that there might be repercussions for her family should Aegon's campaign not go to plan.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Her family is already in deep shit. Darkstar sliced an ear off princess myrcella so I don't think the daynes are exactly in favor what's a little more with ashara being lemore. Nothing ever points at her being ashara besides a stretch mark or two. That's not enough for me.

[corbon]

Agreed, mostly. I think Martin purposely has Tyrion describe Lemore in vague terms (i.e. no eye color) so as to leave some mystery. I don't think he totally doesn't care about who she is, it's just that as you say, piecing together the Griff / Young Griff mystery was his first priority. Tyrion recognized early on that Lemore was hiding some things; given the chance, he definitely would've made an effort to piece that together as well...

There is actually a place where Tyrion explicitly thinks he is not interested in her secrets, or something like that. I remember finding it on a reread after having a similar argument months, or even a year or so ago now.

[corbon]

Her family is already in deep shit. Darkstar sliced an ear off princess myrcella so I don't think the daynes are exactly in favor what's a little more with ashara being lemore. Nothing ever points at her being ashara besides a stretch mark or two. That's not enough for me.

I guess you have a little reading to do to catch up. A LOT of individual items point to her being Ashara. Stretch marks is one of the minor ones - most women over a certain age have them, if not most septas (but then, we know she's not really a septa).

Darkstar is an individual from a minor branch of the family. He doesn't necessarily taint the whole family, or even his own minor branch.