[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II

[LogicalLem]

Lyanna is dead. She died in Ned's arms. Ned recalls how the "light went out of her eyes", and how "they" found him clutching her dead body. She is dead. Simple as that.

Has anyone established who "They" were? I assumed that Ned and Howland were the last two living, meaning that only howland would have survived, unless of course Arthur Dayne says "Sure, lets take five, check on your sister and then we'll finish this." Of course with all the Honor of Ned and Arthur maybe that is likely, however I do not think that Arthur dayne found any of the "rebels" as honorable.

Although as I finished writting the above I had a thought. Maybe Ned rushed to find his sister while the others were fighting and then Dayne goes in to finish Ned off and that is how Howland Reed "saves" Neds life. Sorry I got sidetracked.

[blackseer]

"They" were probably the few servants that remained in the tower, a handmaid, maybe a maester, maybe a septon and some other people. What happened to them is a mystery.

[Brucolac]

It doesn't really matter who they were, Ned has memories of her last moments alive and of her body afterwards. She died from fever soon after the confrontation with the kingsguard. There is no way Lyanna is alive, her death is explicitly remembered by the most trustworthy POV we have and her body and burial were seen by the public. We have no known witnesses of Ashara killing herself and it has never been said her body was seen after.

[Dragonfish]

But I can see that Rhaegar obsessed with prophecies may have sleep with one of a few women that have Valyrian blood.

George has all but said that the Daynes do not have Valyrian blood.

[Ludoman]

Lyanna is dead. She died in Ned's arms. Ned recalls how the "light went out of her eyes", and how "they" found him clutching her dead body. She is dead. Simple as that.

Sorry to hear you say that, maybe you are not reading the novels from George RResurrections Martin!!! Davos is dead, his head is in top of one wall in White Harbor. Mance is dead, burned alive by Melissandre. Bolton Bastard is dead. Tyrion is dead, killed at the battle of King's Landing. Catelyn Stark is dead in the red wedding. Aegon is dead, his head crashed by the Mountain. Beric Dondariion is dead a lot of times. Jon Snow (will be) dead!!!! Please, dont be mad about it, is how George plays with us, he loves those cliffhangers and resurrections

It doesn't really matter who they were, Ned has memories of her last moments alive and of her body afterwards. She died from fever soon after the confrontation with the kingsguard. There is no way Lyanna is alive, her death is explicitly remembered by the most trustworthy POV we have and her body and burial were seen by the public. We have no known witnesses of Ashara killing herself and it has never been said her body was seen after.

Yes of course, Ned is wonderful!!. But he lies to his beloved wife not telling her the truth of Jon Snow. He lies to Robert, his best friend, not telling him the truth about Cersei and the kids because he didn't want the child to be assasinated. He lies accepting being a traitor after talking to Varys so Sansa is not killed. So, whenever there is necessary, Ned stark lies to protect his loved ones. Lyanna was not one of those?

[Dragonfish]

Sorry to hear you say that, maybe you are not reading the novels from George RResurrections Martin!!! Davos is dead, his head is in top of one wall in White Harbor. Mance is dead, burned alive by Melissandre. Bolton Bastard is dead. Tyrion is dead, killed at the battle of King's Landing. Catelyn Stark is dead in the red wedding. Aegon is dead, his head crashed by the Mountain. Beric Dondariion is dead a lot of times. Jon Snow (will be) dead!!!! Please, dont be mad about it, is how George plays with us, he loves those cliffhangers and resurrections

From AGoT:

"The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of her sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief."

She's dead. It's an open and shut case.

[Brucolac]

Yeah, Ned stark is lying to himself about the memory he has of her dying. He reconciled with Robert for no reason either and not over their shared grief. GRRM does fake death and in some cases resurrects the dead, but the declarations never have the body to back up the claim of death or the body is there to breathe life back into it. That is the reason so many believe Lemore could be Ashara, because the details of what happened are unclear and the body was possibly never found.

[Dragonfish]

Yeah, Ned stark is lying to himself about the memory he has of her dying. He reconciled with Robert for no reason either and not over their shared grief. GRRM does fake death and in some cases resurrects the dead, but the declarations never have the body to back up the claim of death or the body is there to breathe life back into it. That is the reason so many believe Lemore could be Ashara, because the details of what happened are unclear and the body was possibly never found.

We actually know Ashara's body was never found:

"We were repeatedly told that Ashara Dayne threw herself into the sea. I wonder how this is known for sure. Was her body ever found?

No."

[Brucolac]

That is nice and all, but I would prefer to keep what GRRM said in an interview out of any argument I make and only use the text. He changes his mind, but the words that are printed are there. He has already created impossible time lines with new additions he made in ADwD in my eyes, and his intentions can change or expand. I know her burial and seeing the body was never in the books, but would prefer saying it was possibly not found since there is no account of it anywhere. GRRM could wake up tomorrow and include a memory of someone attended her funeral and weeping over the body if he wants to, but as of now her death is open to question where Lyanna's is not.

[corbon]

Why exactly do you conclude Ashare was available

Because she'd been dishonoured, almost certainly gone away to have her baby (and maybe limit the obviousness of her dishonour to Dorne, where it is less of a big deal), and had not been married off, nor is likely to be. Basically she has no other purpose or life path at this time. She is thus 'available' (though not, as you seem you have misunderstood, in a geographical sense).

(and reliable, obviously that would be an unwanted quality if Aegon is not really Rhaegar's son, at least not to be involved in setting things up from the start)?

I don't subscribe to the idea that Aegon is not Rhaegar's. I admit it is still possible, just unlikely, and in which case Ashara/Lemore has been fooled by Varys as well.

Actually, thinking back on it, Ashara had probably been away from KL for 6 months to a year before the sack, what with being disgraced-ly pregnant and having her baby and all. And Aegon was less than 2 IIRC when murdered, so even though Ashara may have 'known' Aegon (he probably didn't really know her any more if she'd been away that long, contrary to my earlier suggestion) she may still have been deceived by a fake Aegon. A baby that looks 'close enough' from say, 6 months to 18 months...

For all I know, Ashara was down in Starfall (where she probably met Ned after he brought back Dawn, and she also threw herself off a tower there, supposedly or really).

Well yes. That's the point.

She's home in/around Starfall after being dishonoured/having had her stillborn babe when shit goes down at KL. Varys swaps the babes and smuggles real Aegon south by ship with a message to Ashara either by bird or a faster ship.

When Aegon's ship arrives near starfall they signal or message her, and she 'suicides' into the sea (coincidentally not long after Ned had arrived) and is picked up by Aegon's ship where she and Aegon sail to Essos. Then she becomes Sister Lemore. Or more probably later, after joining up with Connington. Initially she would probably pretend to be Aegon's mother rather than a Sister as a mother-child pair would be less 'interesting' than a Sister-child pair.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I've already said this several times, but I would be extremely disappointed if Lemore turned out to be Ashara.

It would be writing of the cheapest caliber to somehow not have Tyrion remark on the most obvious and prominent feature of Ashara in order to make a reveal later on that it is Ashara. Tyrion almost always remarks on details that stand out about people- We know for a fact that pretty much everyone was drawn to Ashara's eyes if anything. For Tyrion to describe everything about her but her eyes, I would think it would be safe to assume that her eyes are common and not worth a description.

I do think it much more likely that Lemore is Tyene's mother. Or even more likely that she's no one special in particular.

Well said, and agreed, although I do think there is a reason there's a bit of mystery around the way her character is written. We will learn about what she's hiding, I'm certain, but I can't see her as Ashara, and don't want to. I think the tragedy of Ashara is far better written "as is." Amd I have also had enough of "fake" deaths.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I have a story. There is a mistress to an exceedingly powerful man, who has lived high among lords and ladies (although she herself was lowborn). She is smart enough that he consults her sometimes on affairs of state, and beguiling enough to entrance him, but not his household. Upon the untimely death of her lord and protector, she is stripped bare and forced to walk naked from Casterly Rock, sent off to (as Tywin later put it regarding Tysha) "wherever whores go.". This particular whore has a secret, though. She is with child by her now dead lord, and well aware that almost certainly she and the babe will be killed if Tywin learns of it. She flees across the narrow sea to Braavos.

All gods have their followers in Braavos. She finds a temple to the seven gods of Westeros, where they take in this repentant and terrified womam who is due to give birth at any time. Once the child is born, the woman finds the temple so peaceful and safe (and is so grateful for their shelter) that she begins the study of a novice. Eventually she becomes a Septa of sorts, although some of her former lowborn ways tend to persist a bit - for example, she has no problem showing her naked form before strangers.

How she comes to the attention of Illyrio I do not know. Perhaps Varys has known where she was all along - as well as the location and identity of her natural Lannister child. She has the knowledge to instruct young Griff, the desire to see the Lannisters brought low, and absolute loyalty because Varys knows her true identity, as well as that of her now grown child (and hmmm, wouldn't it be interesting to think who THAT might be). Her age would probably be a little higher than Tyrion's estimation, but it is certainly not impossible that a woman who was beautiful enough to entrance one of the greatest lords in the land in her teens/early 20's, could age well into quite a handsome woman in her late 40's or even beyond.

I am sure there are holes or problems with my theory and I would love to hear them, because I am not wholly sold on it myself ... It is just another interesting theory of another character we seemed to hear about rather repeatedly, who simply vanished. It would thrill me to death to think that the womam they threw out so cruelly has been happily in hiding all this time, awaiting her chance at revenge, and oh, how the Lannisters would howl when they find out about Tytos' baseborn (and now full grown, possibly dangerous) child.

Just another possibility I find more interesting at present than another discourse about the color of Ashara's eyes. IMO Ashara just does not fit with what we know of Lemore's personality. Truly devout she may be, but a true Lady she is not, unless most highborn Westeros women are accustomed to strip naked before sellswords and strangers to go for a dip - and seem to revel in the admiration their body still earns them. JonCon may or may not know who she truly is or where she truly came from. He has spent over a decade swallowing whatever latest twist of plan has been fed to him by Varys and Illyrio. If they presented the "Lady Lemore" and said she was to assist in YG's studies, I doubt he troubled himself much about where they found her or how they guaranteed her loyalty. He would simply assume they knew what they were about.

Remember, as Kevan Lannister lay dying, Varys confided that Aegon has learned to fish and hunt, what it is to hunger and to feed, his education has encompassed far more than JonCon alone could have taught him. This tells me that JC has learned to trust that when Varys and Mopatis say "here, this person will now teach him X, it means they are utterly certain of the trustworthiness (or dispensibility) of the teacher. And "Lemore" would have grown to care for the child, as a surrogate for the mysterious child she is presumably now separated from.

[Silmarien]

Well said, and agreed, although I do think there is a reason there's a bit of mystery around the way her character is written. We will learn about what she's hiding, I'm certain, but I can't see her as Ashara, and don't want to. I think the tragedy of Ashara is far better written "as is." Amd I have also had enough of "fake" deaths.

We've never directly "seen" Ashara though, only "heard" about her from other characters. And if you're gonna fake your death, a way that ensures that no body is found is probably a good route back in those days. So if HER death ends up fake, at least it's plausible.

TBH, the "she threw herself off a bridge out of grief....for.....[unknown reason - her stillborn daughter who died 9 months prior, grief for her brother's death]" story is kinda contrived.

Also, people's eyes CHANGE OVER TIME. Why would a 40ish Ashara look and seem the same as a 14-20ish year old Ashara (no idea how old she was, but she was "flowered" and eligible" for marriage)?

Also, eye color can change or fade over time. These are perfectly fine reasons for not noticing eye color. As is the fact that Tyrion's sight is focused on her breasts mostly, not her face.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

TBH, the "she threw herself off a bridge out of grief....for.....[unknown reason - her stillborn daughter who died 9 months prior, grief for her brother's death]" story is kinda contrived.

I agree, her death is written in such a way as to suggest there is more to this story, and that what we know isn't necessarily how it went down. I've got no problem being surprised with plot twists on that front. I just want her to be dead and stay dead. The fake death (Bran, Rickon, Davos, Hound)/dying then resurrecting (Dondarrian, Catelyn)/fake death that may turn out not to be fake (Aegon) theme has become extremely stale to me. Just sayin <_<

[Galen M]

As for Tytos's mistress being Lemore. He died at least before the twins were born, and the twins are like 34 in DWD. That would mean the mistress would be at least 50 by that point.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

According to one of Cersei's POVs, she was one year old when Tytos died and the mistress took her walk of shame. Since we do not know the age of the mistress at the time, that only gives us a general speculation how old she was now, but we have seen kept mistresses and wives as young as 13. That could put her age as low as 46, or I would say no more than ten years older than that. If Tytos was going to risk further ridicule by keeping this mistress, I am assuming (yes, I know, assuming) that she was relatively young and striking.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

And again, I am not totally sold on this ...just presenting it as another vague possibility. Something about Lemore's personality suggests to me that at some point in her life, she was accustomed to behaving no better than she absolutely had to, and she is proud and strong. All that would have to apply to the discarded mistress, IF she survived. And again I just love the idea of Cersei/Jaime discovering that their father's generation of males did not quite expire when Kevan did.

[mpbarnes]

IMO Ashara just does not fit with what we know of Lemore's personality. Truly devout she may be, but a true Lady she is not, unless most highborn Westeros women are accustomed to strip naked before sellswords and strangers to go for a dip - and seem to revel in the admiration their body still earns them.

Except that Ashara is Dornish, and we've repeatedly been shown that Dornish culture is significantly more liberal in its attitudes to sex and sexuality than the rest of Westeros. So actually, you're point lends more credence to Lemore being Ashara, not less. The scene on the boat is a major sign that this "Septa" is definitely not who she appears to be, it also seems to fit most of everything we do know about Ashara, her background, her looks and her personality.

[Whatever]

"They" were probably the few servants that remained in the tower, a handmaid, maybe a maester, maybe a septon and some other people. What happened to them is a mystery.

One of them was named Wylla :)

[MtnLion]

One of them was named Wylla :)

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Maester's name was Luwin? (I know that somewhere I read how he came to Winterfell ...)