[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II

[Dragonfish]

But if his internal monologue was intended to reveal that he knows her true identity, why not think of her as "Lady Ashara"?

Connington never once directly refers to Lemore in his internal monologue. The only time she's called "Lady Lemore" outside of dialogue, it's the narrator who's speaking. We don't know how Connington actually refers to her in his own mind.

[tze]

Connington never once directly refers to Lemore in his internal monologue. The only time she's called "Lady Lemore" outside of dialogue, it's the narrator who's speaking. We don't know how Connington actually refers to her in his own mind.

What narrator are you talking about? In a Connington Point-of-View, Connington is the narrator. When he thinks about her, he is by definition referring to her in his own mind.

[Brucolac]

It doesn't really matter how Connington thinks of her because GRRM can't really describe her by one name in observation and in thought and another in the rest of the text. He has to use Lemore in those POVs when he writes them. You can tell Martin is trying to keep her identity explicitly hidden while giving plenty of hints that she is not Lady/Septa Lemore, her character actually says she is hiding her identity along with Tyrion's thinking she is hiding her identity and the change from Septa to Lady. So, you know she is not who she says she is and GRRM doesn't want to reveal it in this book so he has to leave out any information that is a giveaway(eye color) and refer to as Lemore in all text. That is a literary constraint, and it it is meaningless that Connington has to refer to her as Lemore just like it is meaningless that Tyrion leaves out her eye color.

[Zar Lannister]

I was sold on her being Ashara, but could she be Lyanna? A stretch, but what if Lyanna really didn't die and made Ned promise not to tell, so she and her baby (Aegon-not Jon) were secreted away. She would have known how furious Robert would have been and that her baby's life would be forfeit. Or Jon is her child, but it was better for her to disappear and he would be safe with Ned. If any of these are true- then what would Ashara/Lyanna/Mystery woman think about Ned's death and all the crazy happenings?

Weren't Robert and Howland Reed at tge Tower of Joy? Also, Lyanna being a northener would worship the old Gods. I mean she could be trained to pretend to be a Septa, but given Lyanna's supposed temper it would be a little over stretched.

[Galen M]

What narrator are you talking about? In a Connington Point-of-View, Connington is the narrator. When he thinks about her, he is by definition referring to her in his own mind.

No, it is in 3rd person, so Connington is not the narrator, except the italic portions when he uses 1st person.

Weren't Robert and Howland Reed at tge Tower of Joy? Also, Lyanna being a northener would worship the old Gods. I mean she could be trained to pretend to be a Septa, but given Lyanna's supposed temper it would be a little over stretched.

No, Robert was not there.

[Wouter]

I'm of the mind that Aegon is exactly who he says he is, but I'll play along for a moment. Now, if Aegon is not actually Rhaegar & Elia's son, do you think that Connington knows it?

[...] If Varys is playing a game with them, after 15+ years, you think two people who were intimately connected to R&E would have some professed doubts about Aegon's legitmacy. In Connington's POV chapters they don't have any doubts at all. So either they have no idea that Aegon is fake, or Aegon is legit.

Connington believes it is Aegon - obviously. What I believe is that he, in any case, has been duped by Varys and Illyrio - that Connington was a close friend to Rhaegar, with feelings of guilt over failing him, only makes it easier to fool him because he has reasons to want to believe that he has a second chance to do right by Rhaegar.

The problem it poses to the Ashara theory is that this means there wasn't really a baby swap, and Elia wasn't involved. Connington wasn't involved until a few years later - no real babyswap means that Illyrio had to wait until he was certain he had a child with the right colouring and apparent age, which probably means he did exactly have to wait a few years to be sure of looks and to hide a small age difference, if necessary. The same would go for Ashara: she wouldn't have been involved from the get-go (because she would be loyal to Elia and Rhaegar, she wouldn't knowingly participate in such a scam), so she would have been involved at about the same time Connington got contacted. But in that case, Ashara would have been supposedly dead for quite some time, and if she is really alive that means she faked her death for other reasons - yet Illyrio or Varys would have needed to find her.

If Lemore's sole purpose was to instruct Aegon in the faith, why don't they just leave her behind once he makes it to Westeros. Instead, she's with the company, right to the end. And at the end in his POV Connington repeatedly refers to her as "Lady Lemore" never again as Septa, even after she's put the Septa robes back on when they arrive at Griffin's Roost.

I rather like Wellspring's suggestion: she could be Serra. Now, Serra is dead, but so is Ashara - as far as we are told. Illyrio seemed very convincing to me when he talked to Tyrion, but if she has to hide and stay far away from him he would have extra reasons to be sad on top of missing what is possibly his own son (Aegon). Serra would have very good reasons to stay close to her son, obviously, but Connington would not know she is his mother (and has probably been told some fake story about a lady Lemore, much like happens in the Vale regarding "Alayne Stone").

Serra would have Targaryen colouring, but maybe her eyes weren't remarkable (the hair could be dyed).

Evidence:

3. Ashara Dayne was Elia's handmaid and her brother Rhaegar's closest friend and confidante, so she was reliable, available, known to Varys and knew baby Aegon already (and he knew her).

Why exactly do you conclude Ashare was available (and reliable, obviously that would be an unwanted quality if Aegon is not really Rhaegar's son, at least not to be involved in setting things up from the start)? For all I know, Ashara was down in Starfall (where she probably met Ned after he brought back Dawn, and she also threw herself off a tower there, supposedly or really). Again, assuming Aegon is not really Rhaegar's son (your reasoning implies he would be, otherwise "knowing baby Aegon" would be a negative for the L=A theory), Varys would have no reason to involve her at the start, just like Connington wasn't involved at the start. Once Varys started looking for Connington (a convenient person to legitimise Aegon, being Rhaegar's friend and a capable commander and warrior), he could also have looked for Ashara, but she is supposed to be dead at this point and her whereabouts (if she faked her death) were thus unknown to anyone not involved in faking it. And Varys presumably wouldn't be involved in that. We don't even know why Ashara would have faked her death, as it wasn't for Aegon (again assuming, he is not really Rhaegar's son).

[Brucolac]

Varys would have reason to involve her from the very start, which would have been months before she was supposed to have killed herself. He can't keep the baby himself and has to send it from the seven kingdoms with someone that he can trust as well as find a nursemaid for it. If Ashara did have a stillborn child, she can fill both roles.

[Wouter]

Varys would have reason to involve her from the very start, which would have been months before she was supposed to have killed herself.

My premise is that Aegon is not truly Elia's son - if you do believe that he is, then the above may apply. But the discussion above starts from the possibility that Aegon is not Elia's son. Why would Varys involve a good friend of Elia in a scheme to make some other child pass as hers, after she and her children have been killed? If Aegon is Serra's and Illyrio's son, Serra could take care of him herself (if she lived) or Illyrio could find someone, which doesn't have to be Ashara.

Is there anybody active in the thread who thinks that a)Aegon is not Elia's son and b)Lemore is Ashara? Just curious if everybody advocating the L=A position believes Varys about Aegon.

[Jem]

"Is there anybody active in the thread who thinks that a)Aegon is not Elia's son and b)Lemore is Ashara? Just curious if everybody advocating the L=A position believes Varys about Aegon." (sorry, quote function is not working for me)

Yes, I think Aegon is Ashara's son with Rhaegar and that Septa Lemore is Ashara. I think that Varys thinks that Aegon is Elia's son but he is wrong.

[Wouter]

Yes, I think Aegon is Ashara's son with Rhaegar and that Septa Lemore is Ashara. I think that Varys thinks that Aegon is Elia's son but he is wrong.

That's an interesting angle, though you still do believe he is at least Rhaegar's son for real (and it would have Rhaegar involved with 3 women at once!). In that case, who would have duped Varys, then? Ashara herself? Seems unlikely to me that Varys could be fooled like that, when he was present in KL when the sack took place.

[Jem]

"That's an interesting angle, though you still do believe he is at least Rhaegar's son for real (and it would have Rhaegar involved with 3 women at once!). In that case, who would have duped Varys, then? Ashara herself? Seems unlikely to me that Varys could be fooled like that, when he was present in KL when the sack took place."

Here is a link to the thread where I listed my theory:

I also like the irony that Varys, who has a finger in every pie and who thinks he is in control of everyone, doesn't really have a clue.

[Brucolac]

Varys would help/be in on a conspiracy to pass off a Rheagar/Ashara offspring as Aegon as long as still gets to influence his upbringing. I don't buy Aegon being a Serra/Illyrio swap with Ashara involved, and I don't see Lemore being anyone else. If GRRM made a big deal about her secret identity and she turns out to be a virtual nobody, that is stupidly lame on his part. I think Selmy's musings could be construed to imply a a Rheagar/Ashara relationship and that the baby could have been used in a swap. Either way, the only person I can think of for Lemore to be is Ashara, either raising her friend's son or her own.

[LogicalLem]

On Ashara's Eyes: It is not uncommon for someones eyes to fade or darker as they get older making them harder for Tyrion to notice, especially not while he is focused on her body, and at the time figuring out who Griff and and little Griff are. remember there was a lot going on during his time with the companions and during this time he had not sated his lust in some time, making it harder to focus on anything but her womanly physical attributes over her eyes. He is astute but he is not immune to his own baser lusts. I think ashara fits best, but in reality with GRRM I wouldnt be suprised if it was Jaqhen hagar... Thats a joke, I think.

[LogicalLem]

On Varys: Does it appear to anyone else that based on all of Varys's actions it seems more like he is in control, and remember he told Ned he did what he did for the Kingdom. Why lie to Ned when he is either going to Die or go to the Wall? It seems that Varys was trying to incite a civil war between Rhaegar and The Mad King but he didnt count on Rhaegar running away with Lyanna, sparking BStark to ride into kings landing and then Roberts Rebellion. In my opinion it seems that everything Varys does/has done is pointing at putting a Targaryen BACK on the Iron throne.

[Ludoman]

I think Septa Lemore could be Lyanna

Similar age (or at list not so different) and physical characteristics made it possible. And I thinl clue could be in the "Promise me, Ned" phrase.

Much readers think that is referring to Jon, a bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. She would be asking Ned Stark to lie, to adopt the baby as his bastard and save him. That could be possible.

But Raeghar "kidnapped" Lyanna? After saying her she is the most beautiful (the queen of beauty) and knowing he is married to a person that he doesn't love (all for the Kingdom), maybe they both falled in love. Could be that Lyanna was fond of Rhaegar (a good quality prince, melancholic,...) but not of Robert (he was in love and she should be her wife because it was arranged for her, in no place is told that she was fond of Robert). And Lyanna knows that Robert is brutal, so if she is in love with Raeghar and has his baby (Jon Snow), would she liked to lose the child, be forced to marry Robert or, worst, being accused by Robert for unloyalty?

"Promise me, Ned" That could be: "You would tell them that you found me dying" "No one should see me" (well, Reed is a friend) "My boy would be safe with you as your bastard" " I will go far away with Raeghar, my true love, to the Free Cities" (common place). Varys moves Lyanna to the Free Cities but Robert kills Raeghar, so Lyanna ahs to be hidden and cannot return as herself.

Know Robert is dead, and also Ned. Griff is his nephew and probably she is fond of him. Probably she knows his son is at the Wall and the only way to see him is returning to the Kingdom, but not alone!!!

Sorry for the long post!!!

[Ludoman]

I think Septa Lemore could be Lyanna

Similar age (or at list not so different) and physical characteristics made it possible. And I think clue could be in the "Promise me, Ned" phrase.

Much readers think that is referring to Jon, a bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. She would be asking Ned Stark to lie, to adopt the baby as his bastard and save him. That could be possible.

But Raeghar "kidnapped" Lyanna? After saying her she is the most beautiful (the queen of beauty) and knowing he is married to a person that he doesn't love (all for the Kingdom), maybe they both falled in love. Could be that Lyanna was fond of Rhaegar (a good quality prince, melancholic,...) but not of Robert (he was in love and she should be her wife because it was arranged for her, in no place is told that she was fond of Robert). And Lyanna knows that Robert is brutal, so if she is in love with Raeghar and has his baby (Jon Snow), would she liked to lose the child, be forced to marry Robert or, worst, being accused by Robert for unloyalty?

"Promise me, Ned" That could be: "You would tell them that you found me dying" "No one should see me" (well, Reed is a friend) "My boy would be safe with you as your bastard" " I will go far away with Raeghar, my true love, to the Free Cities" (common place). Varys moves Lyanna to the Free Cities but Robert kills Raeghar, so Lyanna ahs to be hidden and cannot return as herself.

Know Robert is dead, and also Ned. Griff is his nephew and probably she is fond of him. Probably she knows his son is at the Wall and the only way to see him is returning to the Kingdom, but not alone!!!

Sorry for the long post!!!

[Ludoman]

I think Septa Lemore could be Lyanna

Similar age (or at list not so different) and physical characteristics made it possible. And I think clue could be in the "Promise me, Ned" phrase.

Much readers think that is referring to Jon, a bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. She would be asking Ned Stark to lie, to adopt the baby as his bastard and save him. That could be possible.

But Raeghar "kidnapped" Lyanna? After saying her she is the most beautiful (the queen of beauty) and knowing he is married to a person that he doesn't love (all for the Kingdom), maybe they both falled in love. Could be that Lyanna was fond of Rhaegar (a good quality prince, melancholic,...) but not of Robert (he was in love and she should be her wife because it was arranged for her, in no place is told that she was fond of Robert). And Lyanna knows that Robert is brutal, so if she is in love with Raeghar and has his baby (Jon Snow), would she liked to lose the child, be forced to marry Robert or, worst, being accused by Robert for unloyalty?

"Promise me, Ned" That could be: "You would tell them that you found me dying" "No one should see me" (well, Reed is a friend) "My boy would be safe with you as your bastard" " I will go far away with Raeghar, my true love, to the Free Cities" (common place). Varys moves Lyanna to the Free Cities but Robert kills Raeghar, so Lyanna has to be hidden and cannot return as herself.

Know Robert is dead, and also Ned. Griff is his nephew and probably she is fond of him. Probably she knows his son is at the Wall and the only way to see him is returning to the Kingdom, but not alone!!!

Sorry for the long post!!!

[mpbarnes]

Connington believes it is Aegon - obviously. What I believe is that he, in any case, has been duped by Varys and Illyrio - that Connington was a close friend to Rhaegar, with feelings of guilt over failing him, only makes it easier to fool him because he has reasons to want to believe that he has a second chance to do right by Rhaegar.

The problem it poses to the Ashara theory is that this means there wasn't really a baby swap, and Elia wasn't involved. Connington wasn't involved until a few years later - no real babyswap means that Illyrio had to wait until he was certain he had a child with the right colouring and apparent age, which probably means he did exactly have to wait a few years to be sure of looks and to hide a small age difference, if necessary. The same would go for Ashara: she wouldn't have been involved from the get-go (because she would be loyal to Elia and Rhaegar, she wouldn't knowingly participate in such a scam), so she would have been involved at about the same time Connington got contacted. But in that case, Ashara would have been supposedly dead for quite some time, and if she is really alive that means she faked her death for other reasons - yet Illyrio or Varys would have needed to find her.

I rather like Wellspring's suggestion: she could be Serra. Now, Serra is dead, but so is Ashara - as far as we are told. Illyrio seemed very convincing to me when he talked to Tyrion, but if she has to hide and stay far away from him he would have extra reasons to be sad on top of missing what is possibly his own son (Aegon). Serra would have very good reasons to stay close to her son, obviously, but Connington would not know she is his mother (and has probably been told some fake story about a lady Lemore, much like happens in the Vale regarding "Alayne Stone").

Serra would have Targaryen colouring, but maybe her eyes weren't remarkable (the hair could be dyed).

Why exactly do you conclude Ashare was available (and reliable, obviously that would be an unwanted quality if Aegon is not really Rhaegar's son, at least not to be involved in setting things up from the start)? For all I know, Ashara was down in Starfall (where she probably met Ned after he brought back Dawn, and she also threw herself off a tower there, supposedly or really). Again, assuming Aegon is not really Rhaegar's son (your reasoning implies he would be, otherwise "knowing baby Aegon" would be a negative for the L=A theory), Varys would have no reason to involve her at the start, just like Connington wasn't involved at the start. Once Varys started looking for Connington (a convenient person to legitimise Aegon, being Rhaegar's friend and a capable commander and warrior), he could also have looked for Ashara, but she is supposed to be dead at this point and her whereabouts (if she faked her death) were thus unknown to anyone not involved in faking it. And Varys presumably wouldn't be involved in that. We don't even know why Ashara would have faked her death, as it wasn't for Aegon (again assuming, he is not really Rhaegar's son).

First, as per the interesting theory below, Aegon might not be "real" and there still could have been a baby swap. Elia's child could have been stillborn, Ashara could have offerred her child with Targ eyes. We know the "Ned" Dayne has Targ features, and considering how little we've seen or heard of him since, it's likely that there was some import to his description.

Lemore could be Serra, but if that's the case, I don't buy that she really has a reason to be secret. Regardless of Aegon's legitimacy as a "true" heir, having two people vouch for his authenticity would be infinitely better than one long lost lord. Given the fact that every book has mentioned Ashara Dayne, it's clear people remember her and if she were to show up people wouldn't doubt that it's really her. What does this plot gain with the other "candidates"...nothing. For Connington to believe in this plot he likely would have needed more than Varys and Illyrio's assurances, Ashara provides that, no one else does.

"Is there anybody active in the thread who thinks that a)Aegon is not Elia's son and b)Lemore is Ashara? Just curious if everybody advocating the L=A position believes Varys about Aegon." (sorry, quote function is not working for me)

Yes, I think Aegon is Ashara's son with Rhaegar and that Septa Lemore is Ashara. I think that Varys thinks that Aegon is Elia's son but he is wrong.

That's an interesting angle, though you still do believe he is at least Rhaegar's son for real (and it would have Rhaegar involved with 3 women at once!). In that case, who would have duped Varys, then? Ashara herself? Seems unlikely to me that Varys could be fooled like that, when he was present in KL when the sack took place.

I really like this theory. If Aegon is really Ashara's child that adds whole new trashy soap opera elements to the story. From Barristan we know Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, at least in his mind. He doesn't say who "dishonored" her, it could have been Brandon Stark, Oberyn Martell or Rhaegar. Ned's not likely to have "dishonored" anyone, especially not before having to marry Catelyn (i.e. he would have just married Ashara, since this was while Brandon was still alive and promised to Cat). It's clear from the descriptions of "Ned" Dayne and "Darkstar" that at least the men in the Dayne family look a lot like Targaryen's.

It's entirely possible that given the fact that Rhaegar was trying to get his "three dragons," that if Elia's second child was born stillborn, at virtually the same time as Ashara's child was born, the two women would have done the first swap. The timeline issues of this are not entirely clear to me, but seems like Harrenhal happened in 281, Aegon was born in 282, so that's pretty close. Given Ashara's out of wedlock birth for a highborn woman, it's likely that it would have been done in secret or very close to Elia.

Varys wouldn't even have to know that Aegon is not actually Rhaegar's child. I love the twist that Varys wouldn't have known because the secret would have been only between the women. Hell, it's entirely possible if Elia and Ashara had their children very closely together that Ashara might not have known about the switch. The possibilities are endless...

However, personally, I still subscribe to the Aegon is Aegon camp, along with Lemore = Ashara...it seems more plausible and I don't think Martin needs to add any more soap opera styled intrigue to the series as it starts to wrap up.

[Dragonfish]

I think Septa Lemore could be Lyanna

Lyanna is dead. She died in Ned's arms. Ned recalls how the "light went out of her eyes", and how "they" found him clutching her dead body. She is dead. Simple as that.

[Ice Turtle]

Problem with Ashara being mother of Aegon (was his head smashed against a wall or not) is that she had dark hair. Any Stark as a father is out of question. But I can see that Rhaegar obsessed with prophecies may have sleep with one of a few women that have Valyrian blood. And It actually could have been Oberyn. There is that one ominous sentence where Tyrion thinks that Oberyn is not known to father any boy. He has dark hair, but also Targ blood, so there is a chance that child looked as a Targ.