Olenna Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I wonder if the weirwood paste is meant to be a parallel to Arya drinking the bitter milk. Maybe consuming weird/sinister substances is a rite of passage for those who want to graduate to the next level of magical ability. It's similar to Dany drinking shade of the evening, too. Any other examples of magic drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Non-Human Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Wasnt it established that the sap of weirdwoods is red? If it wasnt, I can see where the theory comes from, but otherwise... I believe he is alive, but frightened and sullen because his death is close now. Perhaps he knows he will die on his way home, not necessarily after they arrive, and instead of staying in the cave and try to avert, is restless to go and meet it. Meera is obviously crying for him, because he will not try to fight it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em388480 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Weirwood sap is defined as blood red. Jojen in paste = silly, not to mention a stupid plot turn for the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olenna Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Weirwood sap is defined as blood red. Jojen in paste = silly, not to mention a stupid plot turn for the book.It's goofy, yeah, but we have many precedents for the idea that to obtain a magic whatever (sword, dragon, power) someone's life has to be sacrificed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tripps Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I just think the 'sacrafice' in front of the wiertree was to be done in the eyes of the old god's. I don't think it was a sacrifice, so much as an executionWell it's mentioned elsewhere in the book that the Northmen's ancestors used to perform Blood Sacrifices to their gods, so that's probably exactly what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Blood magic, with all its powers and dangers, is one of the major themes of the series. The dichotomy is illustrated all the time; for example, Mel achieves some success by burning leeches filled with Eric Storm's blood, but is the ultimate payoff worth the life of Eric Storm? Cersei discovers her future through blood magic, but was that sacrifice worth the psychic cost? So I don't think it is at all inconsistent with the story for GRRM to suggest that blood was shed so that Bran could become a true greenseer. And that suggestion well and truly raised the creepiness factor of Bran's chapters. But that suggestion was made in a cliffhanger, so I guess we'll all just have to wait three or four years to get the answer . . .And perhaps its worth noting that the Singers don't regard death -- and in fact, don't experience death -- as a final removal from the world. So if Jojen gets to become part of the earth a little earlier than he would have liked, oh, well . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourmaline Dragon Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I wonder if the weirwood paste is meant to be a parallel to Arya drinking the bitter milk. I actually thought it may be a parallel to Dany drinking shade of the evening at the House of the Undying - in that it tastes dreadful and first and then delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 And perhaps its worth noting that the Singers don't regard death -- and in fact, don't experience death -- as a final removal from the world. So if Jojen gets to become part of the earth a little earlier than he would have liked, oh, well . . .Good point, but Jojen clearly doesn't see it that way and neither does Meera. And they are right, they are not "singers" and they want to live and be among their loved ones, as normal human beings. Merging with trees might be fine for the alien "singers", but not so much for humans. Bloodraven at least was likely already very old when he went there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I do have the impression that GRRM was at least trying to make us doubt what was in the paste, and if anything happened with Jojen. I would call it a cliffhanger - if a very subtle one, not of the Brienne sort.One thing that has come up since Feast and Dance is that many people presume any off screen death to be a ruse (see Davos, Brienne, possibly Sandor and now Jojen, Stannis and Jon) and I think there would be a high shock level if Bran's first Chapter in TWOW was warging Hodor, only to find Jojen body beside a pestle and mortar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayne's Sword Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Rereading the book at a slower pace. did the paste chapter last night. i dont think the paste contained jojen. wouldnt be surprised if he died offscreen though and Meera ran off to see him walking down the hill with the wights bursting out of the snow around him.i have 2 more theories on meera running off. 1. she sensed brans thoughts through his body language. felt confused and scarpered. the second and IMO is that she was worried about her brother and felt the urge to see if he was ok?in that chapter there is a line that states that between her running off and the time travel sequence a number of days/weeks had passed. if something had happened to the Reeds i would of thought bran would of thought of that at some point before going on his trip. at least a little wondering thought of "oh wonder where they are?" "or shame what happend to jojen. i really liked Meera, she could of been my Jolinqul" etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow's Nuncle Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 “He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.”Obviously, Jojen is going to die enroute. Which is why Meera feels sad that he wants to go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo1 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 JS Nuckle, where do you get your avatar? Please hook me us. I want a copy of that as big as I can get it in my house. Omar is the man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragginstoned Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Wasnt it established that the sap of weirdwoods is red? If it wasnt, I can see where the theory comes from, but otherwise... It will be discovered that he's in the paste.Of course some people will only watch the TV show, and be SO SHOCKED when we get to that part in season 6.I'll be making reaction videos called "Two Reeds, one Bowl" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satoris T Born Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I doubt jojen was the paste in the bowl, but he does make a comment about Bran, "he is not the one who needs to be afraid". Is that referring to Jojen himself being scared, or whoever Bran will go up against? It almost sounds like Jojen is going to be used for something down in that cave. Or his death is near, but it has to be used to help Bran again. I don't know.Also, Bran thinks about Hodor wandering the caves (last lines of 449), and then on 450 he thinks, "no one must know"....he probably commandeers Hodor's body and goes off into the world to fight later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nausicaä Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I hope this queston will be asked to Martin in the next Q&A - if he intended a cliffhanger here or if I and some others are seeing ghosts here.Look, if Martin didn't intend this to be a suggestion at all he will have no problems confirming Jojen is alive. Maybe the question could be asked at the next signing or whatever meeting with Martin?Just wondering, has it been asked since then? If so, what did Martin say? Sorry to ask, but I really want to know and the search is not working :/ Damn, this theory creeped me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Weirwood sap is not defined as blood red, but a "white paste, thick and heavy, with red veins running through it." Jojen isn't a greenseer anyway, so I don't really see how sacrificing him could awaken the gift in Bran. As far as the "death for a life" thing goes, no one has really been born here. Bran has always been a greenseer, it just hasn't been awoken in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arryk Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 So, would people rather Jojen was sacrificed and his blood was put into the paste or he die a slow death starving, freezing and rotting in the cave? I interpreted his demeanor as meaning he knew he would die in the cave and wouldn't see home again or that he saw something in his green dreams that told him that the journey was a mistake...both are bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 So, would people rather Jojen was sacrificed and his blood was put into the paste or he die a slow death starving, freezing and rotting in the cave? I interpreted his demeanor as meaning he knew he would die in the cave and wouldn't see home again or that he saw something in his green dreams that told him that the journey was a mistake...both are bad. I personally wouldn't like knowing that I just ate one of my only friends to become a greenseer, but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arryk Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I personally wouldn't like knowing that I just ate one of my only friends to become a greenseer, but that's just me. Brandon the Builder erected a wall seperating northmen from the rest of westeros, leaving them to fend for themselves among the Others and their undead. Eddard Stark went into the tower of joy with 6 other men killing men of the kingsguard he respected above all others; Bloodraven killed many of his kinsmen during the Blackfyre Rebellion; Robb went into the Twins and had his men slaughtered and his mother killed; Catelyn captured Tyrion causing the division between Lannister and Stark and her husband to be killed. I could go on ad nauseum, but the point is shit happens in this series and there are numerous consequences. If i was Bran would I feel more or less guilty for having drank the blood of my friend not knowing what it was or causing his death by having him lead me to my destiny? I'd probably feel exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstar Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I got from Meera's comment that Jojen knows that he's going to die at home and he thinks it's time to leave for there. But how can they leave? They are surrounded by wights, and it's freezing out there. I think they're stuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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