Southron Ambitions. Who Is Maester Warlys's Father?

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

However for those of you who are into the tree and sacrifice etc - Luwin voluntarily died at the heart tree - sacrifice by a silver haired women - Osha - as if he at last did believe . ie repeat of Bran's first tree image - Winterfell will live again - thanks to Luwin

Was Osha silver haired? :dunno:

[Carter209]

When I said Dayne, Hightower, and Whent I really only meant the 3 KG at the TOJ, Arthur, Gerold, and Oswell. Oswell's brother would have probably known about Rhaegar's plan due to the fact that he was the host of the tournament, but when I wrote that up I didn't really consider that.

Endrew, yes at this point I do believe AA and the PWWP is the same person. The only fabled heroes who may be different are the Last Hero and AA/PWWP, yet that, IMO, is a slim possibility.

The addition of Luwin was mainly due to his Valyrian link corresponding to a pro-magic maester, but his death being a sacrifice to bring Winterfell back is a great catch.

[BTR-90]

If you look at the history of the Great Houses, they mostly married among their own bannermen. Yet just before Robert's Rebellion, the Lords Paramount were, for the first time, marrying their children outside their domains. Rickard Stark, convinced by Maester Walys, decided to break marry his eldest son and heir to the daughter of Lord Hoster Tully, while Tully had betrothed his other daughter, Lysa, to Jaime, the eldest son and heir of Tywin Lannister. Both Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister were probably influenced by their own maesters as well. Maester Walys probably also convinced Rickard to foster his second son, Ned, with Jon Arryn alongside the young Lord Of Storm's End. In effect five out eight of the Great Houses are bound by marriage and friendship. This alliance proved to be adequate to overthrow the Targaryens.

The Citadel probably concocted a plan after the Targaryens conquered Westeros. The first phase was to kill off the dragons, in both an attempt to rid off magic, and dragons being the chief advantage House Targaryen had against their opponents. Without the dragons, the Targaryens had to rely on the loyalty of their lords for their military strength. Then came the second phase, which was to get rid of the Targaryens themselves, and that's where the allaince between the great houses came in. If Lyanna ever wrote a letter to send to her family about what she had done, the maester at Winterfell was Walys, he could have confiscated or destroyed the letter in hopes it would create conflict between Houses Stark and Targaryen, which would involve the other Houses that House Stark was allied to.

This I highly agree with. the Citadel was there before the Targs and the Targs were nothing but foreign invaders.

[CloudFlare]

I;ve been reading the portion of this thread dedicated to the great House marriage alliance negotiations. I've skimmed the rest of this thread but I don't see a discussion of WHY IN THE WORLD Aerys sent Lord Steffon Baratheon to Lys(?) to search for Rhaegar's bride? Why not someone from the Seven Kingdoms? I don't think he was a paranoid psychopath then.

Because because he wanted someone of Valyrian blood and House Velaryon didn't have any young females at the time?

It is an odd move by Aerys.

Marrying Rhaegar to someone from the Free Cities doesn't bring any power to the Targs. Keeping the blood lines pure seems like a more reasonable motive, but then Rhaegar marries a Martell, apparently with the king's blessing. Maybe Varys was on a 'Essos' kick, due to Varys' effectiveness as a court spy.

Also interesting- no maesters are mentioned as having gone on the trip.

[DreamEater53]

I just had a thought regarding this. There is a point where Maester Luwin is telling Bran about all the links on his maesters chain. (I believe it's when he's trying to convince Bran that his dreams aren't true, I.E. Hiding the obvious magic happening before him.) He mentions that he studied magic at the citadel, which is why he has a certain metal link on his chain, I can't remember which for sure, but IIRC it's Valyrian Steel. He said there's only a select few maesters who have this link on their chain...

Now how about this- That link is not the study of magic. In fact, it's the metal that links you (pun definitely intended) to this conspiracy. It's like brandishing an enemy sigil in plain sight. Obviously this can't be the plan of every Maester, I believe they would have to keep the circle small. If it is Valyrian Steel, it would be so fitting to make that the symbol of the maesters hell bent on taking down the Targaryans.

Is there anything to this?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Was there ever a stark/targaryen marriage?Not as far as i can tell. Seems weird to me

Thanks, it seems wierd to me too. When Queen Alysanne and the royal court visit Winterfell (we are told in stories) Alysanne flies up to the wall cuz she's bored. I can totally see Targs hooking up with Starks in this situation lol.

I just had a thought regarding this. There is a point where Maester Luwin is telling Bran about all the links on his maesters chain. (I believe it's when he's trying to convince Bran that his dreams aren't true, I.E. Hiding the obvious magic happening before him.) He mentions that he studied magic at the citadel, which is why he has a certain metal link on his chain, I can't remember which for sure, but IIRC it's Valyrian Steel. He said there's only a select few maesters who have this link on their chain...

Now how about this- That link is not the study of magic. In fact, it's the metal that links you (pun definitely intended) to this conspiracy. It's like brandishing an enemy sigil in plain sight. Obviously this can't be the plan of every Maester, I believe they would have to keep the circle small. If it is Valyrian Steel, it would be so fitting to make that the symbol of the maesters hell bent on taking down the Targaryans.

Is there anything to this?

Was that only in the show, or was it covered in the books as well?

[Elessar]

I only read the first post in this thread and noticed an error, it's not Archmaester Wargrave, it's Walgrave. Does this piss in the oats of the theory?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I only read the first post in this thread and noticed an error, it's not Archmaester Wargrave, it's Walgrave. Does this piss in the oats of the theory?

No, because Lord Rickard's maester was Walys Flowers, not Warlys. The error was consistent so the theory still holds. :)

[Whitering]

It is an odd move by Aerys.

Marrying Rhaegar to someone from the Free Cities doesn't bring any power to the Targs. Keeping the blood lines pure seems like a more reasonable motive, but then Rhaegar marries a Martell, apparently with the king's blessing. Maybe Varys was on a 'Essos' kick, due to Varys' effectiveness as a court spy.

Also interesting- no maesters are mentioned as having gone on the trip.

It's not that odd if Kevan's view of Aerys is correct, that he purposely took Tywin's only able bodied son (or so he would think) to bully Tywin. He didn't want the Lannisters to win in any situation, so picking a wife from the Free Cities does keep Cersei away, but it doesn't put any egg on Tywin's face really. Marrying Rhaegar to another noble of Westeros does though.

Elia was probably picked by Aerys, probably to piss off Tywin.

[JungWheats]

Something I've been thinking about today...but how are classes picked at the Citadel? We probably don't know for sure but...Is it like universities today where there is a general curriculum needed to fill out a degree, or are you allowed to pick and choose until the links are long enough to go around your neck...or do professors pick there students.

If the Gray Rats conspiracy is true, it seems likely that some professors do pick and choose. For instance, how many people choose to study for their link of Valyrian steel (which is essentially useless because most people believe magic to be bullshit), or would someone like Marwin meet and pursue likely candidates based on their opinions about that person.

We know Pate picked ravenry because he thought it'd be easy to get the link from Walgrave, but I just don't get the vibe that Marwyn is someone who teaches classes to anyone who just signs up. I also don't get the vibe that the Citadel just lets people pick and choose their courses and just lets them be Maesters as soon as their links are long enough to encircle their necks.

Marwyn seems to have favorites; we know that there is something special about Alleras and fake-Pate, since they are probably Sarella Sand and Jaqen. This indicates to me that some professors pick specific students for certain reasons.

[the rightful king]

wow ive seen a lot of theorys on the forums but never as genius as this one. Ive wondered since the prologue in a FFC and this could explain why. im sure though that there is more to this than we think and if this theory is true i would like to find out what made the maesters so ticked as to try and kill all the targaryens. possibly the prince that was promised? or the possibilty ofmagic returning, they did say that the maesters are building a world without magic. correct me if im wrong

EDIT: i remembered maester luwin studied magic at the citadel. this has two possibilities maester luwin was loyal to the starks and has nothing to do with the conspiracy OR as cloudflare said he could be part of the conspiracy to help bring down magic. it could be a secret society and people who wear valyrian steal chains are part of the society! if there is some flaw in my logic please tell me

[Starkfaithful85]

Very interesting thread, and I think you are on to something here. My guess is that we will discover more about these characters and situations in the next Dunk and Egg novel.

I also guess the gauntlet belonged to either Egg or his son.

I wonder what happened to Warlys? I think I remember Cat saying in Thrones that Luwin assisted in the birth of all her children, therefore he would have been in Winterfell since the start of the war, if not before. But if Warlys was the Maester of Rickard, and organized the betrothal to Cat, and I assume that this betrothal was not long before the conflict, then something must have happened to Warlys not long after that to remove him from his position. Maybe he went south with Rickard and got killed along with him in KL? We always here about Rickard going there and getting killed but no way he traveled alone from Winterfell to KL to plead with the Mad King. He would prob have taken his Maester and other advisors, servants, guards, etc. Prob they all got killed there, and Luwin was sent to Winterfell not long after...

Not sure if that advances the discussion any, but its all i have atm :)

This is goign to be out there but what if the reason Benjen is a member of the NW because he found out about Warlys plot with the maesters and possibly murdered him...if warlys came from a prominant family this would cause tension and maybe he was sent to the wall because of that...I know this is kinda crackpot but I am always trying to figure out why benjen was sent to the wall after the war

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I've just read through most of this thread, and it's quite intriguing. But I think there's another wrinkle that deserves to be mentioned here, and might really throw things for a loop...

I'm fairly convinced, after reading and re-reading the prologue and the final chapter of AFFC, that Archmaester Walgrave is a skinchanger / warg who (these days, at least) spends most of his time inhabiting the lives of his ravens.

Not sure how long this would have been going on - but there are clear suggestions in the text that this guy is OLD. For one thing, his son was a fully credentialed Maester to Rickard Stark 20-25 years ago (or whenever these betrothals and alliances were in the works). And Walgrave was supposedly an Archmaester already prior to that time - perhaps even before fathering the boy? Even more indicative of his great age is the fact that Walgrave confuses his young apprentice Pate with Cressen - who we know to have been an elderly Maester at the tail end of his service in the prologue of ACOK. The implication here is that Cressen may also have apprenticed to Walgrave - and if Cressen was ~70 years old or older, then I think Walgrave is more ancient than anyone would believe (esp. given that Alleras outright names Aemon as the oldest person in Westeros).

In the prologue to AFFC, original Pate notes that Walgrave was said to have forgotten more raven lore that any other Maester had ever known. He also observes that, although the Archmaester can't seem to recognize the humans around him, he has no trouble at all telling one raven from another...

Anyway. I've posted elsewhere a brief compilation of evidence to back up this suspicion (I'll try to dig it up soon and repost it here) - but my guess is that if we ever get a close-up look at Walgrave, we may find that he looks very much like the southern counterpart to Bloodraven... incredibly old, spaced-out from constant skinchanging, and well patched into the old magic of Westeros.

I hadn't recognized the very likely relationship between Walgrave and Walys until just recently - and I'm not sure what to make of this connection between the "warg-raven" of Oldtown and Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions."

I do think it is a fascinating combination of characters, connections, and relationships that Martin has assembled on Raven Isle by the end of AFFC. Walgrave, Marwyn, a Faceless Man, Alleras (Sarella) the Sphinx, and Sam of the Night's Watch... all gathered at the oldest building in the citadel, a half-dead weirwood in the courtyard, and black and white ravens quarreling in the branches.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Here's one of my earlier posts working some of this out. Originally posted in the "Heresy 81" thread a few weeks back:

Random thought, as I was scanning the prologue to AFFC... but I wonder if Archmaester Walgrave is more than he appears to be. He is described as being old and forgetful, terribly distracted... but I wonder if he isn't actually the "white raven" foil to Bloodraven.

----- Quote: ----------

"Pate... had once counted himself lucky to be chosen to help old Archmaester Walgrave with the ravens, never dreaming that before long he would also be fetching the man's meals, sweeping out his chambers, and dressing him every morning. Everyone said that Walgrave had forgotten more of ravencraft than most maesters ever knew, so Pate assumed a black iron link was the least that he could hope for, only to find that Walgrave could not grant him one. The old man remained an archmaester only by courtesy. As great a maester as once he'd been, now his robes concealed soiled smallclothes oft as not, and half a year ago some acolytes found him weeping in the Library, unable to find his way back to his chambers. Maester Gormon sat below the iron mask in Walgrave's place, the same Gormon who had once accused Pate of theft.

"In the apple tree beside the water, a nightingale began to sing. It was a sweet sound, a welcome respite from the harsh screams and endless quorking of the ravens he had tended all day long. The white ravens knew his name, and would mutter it to each other whenever they caught sight of him, "Pate, Pate, Pate," until he wanted to scream. The big white birds were Archmaester Walgrave's pride. He wanted them to eat him when he died, but Pate half suspected that they meant to eat him too...

"Archmaester Walgrave had no trouble telling one raven from another, but he was not so good with people. Some days he seemed to think Pate was someone named Cressen."

-- AFFC, Prologue

---------------

Sounds like Walgrave could be a warg who spends too much time in his ravens. Or he could be some alternative version of a greenseer. Bloodraven seems sort of slow, too, when he speaks to Bran in person - and there is an ancient, half-dead weirwood in the courtyard of the Ravenry on Raven Isle:

-----Quote: -------------

"They did not need a boat to reach the Isle of Ravens; a weathered wooden drawbridge linked it to the eastern bank. "The Ravenry is the oldest building at the Citadel," Alleras told him, as they crossed over the slow-flowing waters of the Honeywine. "In the Age of Heroes it was supposedly the stronghold of a pirate lord who sat here robbing ships as they came down the river."

"Moss and creeping vines covered the walls, Sam saw, and ravens walked its battlements in place of archers. The drawbridge had not been raised in living memory. It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss that hung heavy from the tree's pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch. The tree was full of them, and there were more in the arched windows overhead, all around the yard. The ground was speckled by their droppings. As they crossed the yard, one flapped overhead and he heard the others quorking to each other. "Archmaester Walgrave has his chambers in the west tower, below the white rookery," Alleras told him. "The white ravens and the black ones quarrel like Dornishmen and Marchers, so they keep them apart." "

-- AFFC, Chapter 45

-----------------

The building and the tree seem almost to have grown into one another - they are described much the same - and the tree seems half dead. The white and the black ravens quarrel, and are kept apart, but both reside here. Another House of Black and White? I wonder what Walgrave will look like if and when we see him? The long lost triplet to Bloodraven and the Kindly Man? "The [crow] must have three [eyes]," right?

Possible breakdowns of "Walgrave":

-- "Wal" + "Grave" .... "wal" could be a variant of "wall," or a reference to root words meaning "death/slaughter", "choice", "whale" (Leo Tyrell calls Sam "a black-clad whale"), or possibly "king"

-- "Walg" + "Rave" ... looks kind of like a variation on "warg" + "raven"

-------------------

Another clue that Walgrave is a Bloodraven equivalent: his age. Sounds like he could well be ~120 yrs old...

In AFFC Prologue, Pate says Walgrave often mistakes him for somebody named "Cressen". So I looked over the ACOK Prologue, to see whether Cressen's POV makes any reference to Walgrave... and it doesn't. That's in spite of the fact that he shows and explains the white raven to Shireen.

So the main thing I take from the Pate/Cressen mix-up is that Walgrave is so old that he would have been a Maester (possibly even an Archmaester) when Cressen was still a novice. Cressen may even have been Walgrave's assistant, same as Pate.

Can't find the reference in the text, but the wiki puts Cressen's age at "nearly eighty" years, and that can't be far wrong...

.