Underapreciated mystery: Why did Rhaegar Targaryen knight Gregor Clegane?

[lightningboltjs]

I think the most under-appreciated and least talked mystery/plot point in the Song of Ice and Fire is that Rhaegar Targaryen, known for his intelligence and nobility, knighted The Mountain, a vicious morally depraved serial killer. Why would he do this, which apparently he did right around the time he ran off with Lyanna Stark? There have been a few posts about this on here, but most people seem to think it has no significance that Rhaegar was just rewarding him for his skills or looking for a good warrior, neither of those reasons make any sense and there is simply no way that George R.R. Martin just had Rhaegar be the one who knighted the Mountain for no good reason. We learn about it very casually from a quote from Sandor and its never mentioned again and we learn about it at a point in the novels where we really knew little about either character so it wouldn't seem important. I propose that this is a VERY important plot point.

At first blush it would seem tragically ironic at the least that Rhaegar would knight Gregor Clegane a man who would rape and murder his wife and smash his young son's skull, but wait, he DIDNT actually smash Aegon's skull, did he? Some baby's skull got smashed but NOT Aegon's, which allows him to still be alive and potentially play a roll in this Three Headed Dragon prophecy. Rhaegar's daughter was brutally killed by Amory Lorch, but Martin has Clegane be responsible for the botched murder of Aegon. I think something is up with that.

I propose that Rhaegar somehow glimpsed that Clegane had an important role to play in the conflict with the Others, either through a dream or something he found at Summerhall and he kighted him for a very specific reason, although I don't know what that reason is. Clearly the Mountain still have an important role to play going forward in the series.

Another mysterious aspect of the Mountain that is never explained is that he suffered from horrible headaches that he required almost constant milk of the poppey to treat. Could it be that Clegane was somehow under the influence of some sort of spell that caused him continual pain? Or is there something else going on. I've noticed, or at least I think I've noticed, that Martin likes to reveal the truth of mysteries within his stories not through the characters involved in the mystery but through another plot line involving different characters. In Dance with Dragons he gives us a plot where a character thought to be dead was really living inside the skin of another character .... and there is a discourse at one point about the different ways of creating an identity illusion with Arya .... Perhaps the Mountain isn't really who we've believed him to be ....

[Chalais]

Personally I think it was just meant to be ironic, lacking any real deeper meaning since Gregor was never known for his deep thinking skills or his capacity for any sort of loyalty except to himself.

In medical terms the headaches most likely come from his exessive height, he is nearly 8 feet tall, people that reach 7 feet often have serious issues with their spinal cords and joints, and Gregor isn't exactly skinny either, it's 8 feet of pure muscle, there are going to be issues attached to that.

And currently his role in the series is being the Undead Headless Champion of Queen Cersei the Whore of Casterly Rock.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Since when was Rhaegar known for his intelligence and nobility? He always came of as foolish and weak to me...

[Noimporta]

Perhaps he didn't know about his deeds. Perhaps he just thought he was a good warrior. I don't think we should assume that Rhaegar was infallible.

[The King in the South]

Obviously he knighted Gregor in return that Gregor would promise to rape and kill his wife Elia (whom he hated) so that he could spark Dornish hatred of the Lannisters and to fake his son's death so he could smuggle him out of Westeroes into hiding. This is of course because this is all part of Rhaegar's great plan vs the Others that he deciphered from reading a book, oh and he (Rhaegar) faked his death on the trident as well and Jon Connington was really wearing his armor and the name he whispered was Elia because he knew that by his death the plans were being set in motion to have her killed off. This also proves that Rhaegar is actually Griff and when is thinking about himself (Rhaegar) in ADWD he is merely reminiscing on what he once was and how he misses that. Of course he never told Aegon he was really Rhaegar because Aegon hates Rhaegar because Rhaegar ordered Gregor to kill Aegon's mom.

Actually though. Gregor probably won a tournament and Rhaegar said "Oh your a good fighter heres a knighthood" and anyone thinking otherwise is just an idiot and Martin is just trying to show a sense of irony.

edit: not you OP, your post was kinda reasonable

[lightningboltjs]

King in the South, there is just NO WAY that Martin would have Rhaegar be the one to kight the Mountain without some deeper reason for that, and no reason whatsoever is ever given. Rhaegar was a character whose actions all seem to be motivated by prophecy and clearly the Mountain remains a major part of the plot of the series. This is going to turn out to be a hugely important plot point, mark my words.

[brashcandy]

It just highlights the whole corrupt order of knighthood really - someone as reputedly as honorable as Rhaegar knights a beast like the Mountain. "True" knights are more based on the Gregor model than anything else. Whether Rhaegar knew of the extent of the Mountain's depravity is up for debate, but would it have honestly mattered if he did? Do nobles ever expect their dogs to turn around and bite them?

[ARYa_Nym]

Probably because he looked the part. Tywin didn't even know how brutal Lorch and Gregor were until after the murder of Rhaegar's children or so he claims.

[dayman]

It just highlights the whole corrupt order of knighthood really - someone as reputedly as honorable as Rhaegar knights a beast like the Mountain. "True" knights are more based on the Gregor model than anything else. Whether Rhaegar knew of the extent of the Mountain's depravity is up for debate, but would it have honestly mattered if he did? Do nobles ever expect their dogs to turn around and bite them?

Most nobles are is a constant state of concert about dogs biting them

[lightningboltjs]

ARYa_Nym, I think that's an important point too, Rhaegar notices the Mountain but Tywin never did? And I don't think it should be overlooked that the Mountain's most famous depravity, raping and killing Elia with the blood of Aegon's brains on his hands, is at least half bullshit it WASNT Aegon who was killed, Clegane, knighted by Rhaegar, did NOT kill Aegon but somebody else instead. Something is very fishy with that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm sure there's a reason, or it seemed like a good idea at the time. I think that it could just be a matter of tragic irony (which is what I thought of when I read it).

Of course, I also think that the real Aegon was killed and Young Griff is fakity fake fake. So that's one aspect of the argument that I dismiss pretty much outright.

It just highlights the whole corrupt order of knighthood really - someone as reputedly as honorable as Rhaegar knights a beast like the Mountain. "True" knights are more based on the Gregor model than anything else. Whether Rhaegar knew of the extent of the Mountain's depravity is up for debate, but would it have honestly mattered if he did? Do nobles ever expect their dogs to turn around and bite them?

I agree with this.

[brashcandy]

Most nobles are is a constant state of concert about dogs biting them

Really? Which ones?

[mediocre cheese]

Since when was Rhaegar known for his intelligence and nobility? He always came of as foolish and weak to me...

Harsh words from Ser Arthur Dayne who was "rhaegar's closest friend." IIRC

I totally agree with King in the South. Jorah got knighted personally by the high septon, that's not because he particularly devout or virtuous (he's a slave trader), but because he's the 2nd man over the wall. Rhaegar as the crown prince probably was supposed to knight strong fighters and good jousters, just like the high septon does under robert. I doubt Rhaegar was running background checks on the dudes he was knighting, he probably just saw gregor win a tournament and knighted him as a reward.

[lightningboltjs]

Yeah, AverageCheese, I'm just not buying the "it meant nothing" theory. You've got two major characters, one known for his honor giving a major honor to a horribly dishonorable person, right around the time he was making all kinds of moves directly motivated by prophecy, and then shortly thereafter the Mountain repays this favor by raping and killing Rhaegar's wife and killing his infant son, oh but wait the infant son didn't really die. There's way too much weirdness about all of that for it to have no significance. Rhaegar knighted the Mountain because he knew he would use him somehow in this prophecy he was trying to fulfill. I don't know how, I just know it's going to turn out that way. You read it here first.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, AverageCheese, I'm just not buying the "it meant nothing" theory. You've got two major characters, one known for his honor giving a major honor to a horribly dishonorable person, right around the time he was making all kinds of moves directly motivated by prophecy, and then shortly thereafter the Mountain repays this favor by raping and killing Rhaegar's wife and killing his infant son, oh but wait the infant son didn't really die. There's way too much weirdness about all of that for it to have no significance. Rhaegar knighted the Mountain because he knew he would use him somehow in this prophecy he was trying to fulfill. I don't know how, I just know it's going to turn out that way. You read it here first.

Oh really?

[brashcandy]

Yeah, AverageCheese, I'm just not buying the "it meant nothing" theory. You've got two major characters, one known for his honor giving a major honor to a horribly dishonorable person, right around the time he was making all kinds of moves directly motivated by prophecy, and then shortly thereafter the Mountain repays this favor by raping and killing Rhaegar's wife and killing his infant son, oh but wait the infant son didn't really die. There's way too much weirdness about all of that for it to have no significance. Rhaegar knighted the Mountain because he knew he would use him somehow in this prophecy he was trying to fulfill. I don't know how, I just know it's going to turn out that way. You read it here first.

I admire your commitment to this crackpot lightningboltjs, but even if Rhaegar did have a prophetic dream about the some man that would impact his destiny in some way, or that of his children's, I doubt he would have literally seen Gregor's face. As AC pointed out, he probably knighted Gregor on the basis of some tourney performance, but I do think this case speaks to the dire need to run background checks on men entering the knighthood.

[Suriccaio Suriccata]

I think the most under-appreciated and least talked mystery/plot point in the Song of Ice and Fire is that Rhaegar Targaryen, known for his intelligence and nobility, knighted The Mountain, a vicious morally depraved serial killer. Why would he do this, which apparently he did right around the time he ran off with Lyanna Stark? There have been a few posts about this on here, but most people seem to think it has no significance that Rhaegar was just rewarding him for his skills or looking for a good warrior, neither of those reasons make any sense and there is simply no way that George R.R. Martin just had Rhaegar be the one who knighted the Mountain for no good reason. We learn about it very casually from a quote from Sandor and its never mentioned again and we learn about it at a point in the novels where we really knew little about either character so it wouldn't seem important. I propose that this is a VERY important plot point.

At first blush it would seem tragically ironic at the least that Rhaegar would knight Gregor Clegane a man who would rape and murder his wife and smash his young son's skull, but wait, he DIDNT actually smash Aegon's skull, did he? Some baby's skull got smashed but NOT Aegon's, which allows him to still be alive and potentially play a roll in this Three Headed Dragon prophecy. Rhaegar's daughter was brutally killed by Amory Lorch, but Martin has Clegane be responsible for the botched murder of Aegon. I think something is up with that.

I propose that Rhaegar somehow glimpsed that Clegane had an important role to play in the conflict with the Others, either through a dream or something he found at Summerhall and he kighted him for a very specific reason, although I don't know what that reason is. Clearly the Mountain still have an important role to play going forward in the series.

Another mysterious aspect of the Mountain that is never explained is that he suffered from horrible headaches that he required almost constant milk of the poppey to treat. Could it be that Clegane was somehow under the influence of some sort of spell that caused him continual pain? Or is there something else going on. I've noticed, or at least I think I've noticed, that Martin likes to reveal the truth of mysteries within his stories not through the characters involved in the mystery but through another plot line involving different characters. In Dance with Dragons he gives us a plot where a character thought to be dead was really living inside the skin of another character .... and there is a discourse at one point about the different ways of creating an identity illusion with Arya .... Perhaps the Mountain isn't really who we've believed him to be ....

Totally crackpot. Maybe Gregor has headaches because of guilt or says he has headache to drink milk of the poppy so he can sleep, after being tormented by guilt. However, any theory saying that the Mountain is pro-Targ is just BS. He raped and killed Rhaegar's wife. He was a bannermen of the King's Hand. He was a good choice for discreet suporters.

Wanna know why Rhaegar knighted him? Duncan the Tall is the answer. His great-grandfather, considered one of the best Targs king, had a faithful lowborn knight 8feets tall, like the Mountain. Duncan the Tall was considered one of the best knights in history, mainly because he was loyal and chivalrous. Rhaegar could think that he was a reincarnation or simply be inspired by the tales of Aegon V childhood.

Or, even more simple, Rhaegar knighted a lot of knights, like any prince does. That is shown in Dunk and Egg, also. He probably knight good guys, bad guys, and most of all unimportant, unnamed, guys. This is just an irony touch.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

As much as I hate to say it - and I do hate to say it - there's some logic to lightningboltjs's theory. It seems odd that Rhaegar would knight a man that he thought might play a hand in the destruction of his famliy, but maybe he didn't know that the PWWP prophecy would involve the destruction of his family at all.....

I'm not saying I absolutely agree that Rhaegar knighted Gregor because he dreamed in a prophecy that he should. But, let's look at what we know of Rhaegar. He was a bookish, studious prince. He loved to read and play music. The only reason he learned to fight, to become a knight, to pick up a sword in the first place, ws because he read in a book that he should.

This says to me that he is very, very care ful in evry thing he does. He is not a rash, irrational man; except, perhaps, when it came to the PWWP prophecy - whcih if that is true, only supports lightningboltjs theory, not conflicts with it. When Rhaegar knighted Gregor, I find it hard to believe that the prince, from as intelligent and studious as he has been described to us, was not able to percieve what kind of brutish man Gregor was.

So, I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that Rhaegar thought that Gregor would play into the PWWP prophecy. I'm just saying that I think there's more to it than a reward for winning a tourney, unless he was directly ordered to by his father Aerys or something (who probably wouldn't have cared).

[brashcandy]

So you're suggesting, Snark, that Gregor's brutality was imprinted on his features? :P Everyone could see that this was a rapist of women and a murderer of children?

[Candor]

To be honest, I don't think Gregor has some overarching destiny in this series. To me he is meant to be a villain, a brute, and huge lethal guy who can get dragged back from the dead to be a convenient champion for Cersei. Seems like he's getting jerked around more than he is important to anything in particular...