Underapreciated mystery: Why did Rhaegar Targaryen knight Gregor Clegane?

[CJS 2207]

Intriguing theory, but I am not buying it.

For one thing, we do not know for sure if "Young Griff" is actually legit. Therefore, it would seem that any hypothetical scheme Ser Gregor is implicit to comes off feeling even more spurious.

As for the headaches, there are many physiological conditions which could cause them, so unless GRRM makes the cause(s) manifest in a later book, any attempt to explain them at this point is pure conjecture (albeit interesting conjecture).

I agree with the other posters who wrote that Rhaegar likely knighted Gregor due to the latter's skill at arms and/or the joust.

Moreover, it is indeed ironic that this individual went on to play a role in the destruction of Rhaegar's legacy.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

One more thing suspicious about Rhaegar knighting Gregor:

Bottom of page 262 of AGOT, American edition, when Ned and Sansa are at the Hand's tourney and Ned is thinking about Gregor:

Quote:

"Unlike his brother, Ser Gregor did not live at court. He was a solitary man who seldom left his own lands, but for wars and tourneys. He had been with Lord Tywin when King's Landing fell, a new-made knight of seventeen years, even then distinguished by his size and implacable ferocity."

In this quote, we see Ned thinking of Gregor as a "new-made" knight at the time of the Sack of KL. Now, I can't be 100% sure of this, but it seems to me that it's a logical statement to say that a new-made knight has been a knight for less than a year.... Think about Dunk from the D&E stories. He's accepted as a knight by Baelor Breakspear within, say two eeeks of Arlan of pennytree knighting him, and no one even witnessed it...?

Also, we know that the reason Tywin (according to what Tywin says anyway) had Rhaegar's children killed, was to make up for his delinquency, his lateness, in showing up to support Robert and Ned. Also, Aerys was uncertain of Tywin's loyalties during the war - as can be seen by the fact that he was recieving conflicitng advice from Varys and Pycelle about whether or not to let the Lannister army into the city in the first place. If Aerys had reason to be suspicious of Tywin, it's likely Rhaegar did as well.

Following this logic, and assuming I'm correct (though I acknowledge I may not be) that Gregor's knighthood was less than a year old, and the war (Robert's Rebbellion) lasted about a year, this would mean that Rhaegar knighted the bannerman (Gregor) of a man (Tywin) whose loyalty he and his father could not count on, in the midst of a war that was threatening to fracture the kingdom. Isn't that a little subject to suspicion as well? That he would knight anyone that he couldn't be sure he could absolutely count on for 100% support......?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

One more thing suspicious about Rhaegar knighting Gregor:

Bottom of page 262 of AGOT, American edition, when Ned and Sansa are at the Hand's tourney and Ned is thinking about Gregor:

Quote:

"Unlike his brother, Ser Gregor did not live at court. He was a solitary man who seldom left his own lands, but for wars and tourneys. He had been with Lord Tywin when King's Landing fell, a new-made knight of seventeen years, even then distinguished by his size and implacable ferocity."

In this quote, we see Ned thinking of Gregor as a "new-made" knight at the time of the Sack of KL. Now, I can't be 100% sure of this, but it seems to me that it's a logical statement to say that a new-made knight has been a knight for less than a year.... Think about Dunk from the D&E stories. He's accepted as a knight by Baelor Breakspear within, say two eeeks of Arlan of pennytree knighting him, and no one even witnessed it...?

Also, we know that the reason Tywin (according to what Tywin says anyway) had Rhaegar's children killed, was to make up for his delinquency, his lateness, in showing up to support Robert and Ned. Also, Aerys was uncertain of Tywin's loyalties during the war - as can be seen by the fact that he was recieving conflicitng advice from Varys and Pycelle about whether or not to let the Lannister army into the city in the first place. If Aerys had reason to be suspicious of Tywin, it's likely Rhaegar did as well.

Following this logic, and assuming I'm correct (though I acknowledge I may not be) that Gregor's knighthood was less than a year old, and the war (Robert's Rebbellion) lasted about a year, this would mean that Rhaegar knighted the bannerman (Gregor) of a man (Tywin) whose loyalty he and his father could not count on, in the midst of a war that was threatening to fracture the kingdom. Isn't that a little subject to suspicion as well? That he would knight anyone that he couldn't be sure he could absolutely count on for 100% support......?

You're trying to make fetch happen.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

You're trying to make fetch happen.

I don't know what that means.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know what that means.

It's a "Mean Girls" reference. Basically it means that you're trying to argue for something that's never ever going to happen.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

It's a "Mean Girls" reference. Basically it means that you're trying to argue for something that's never ever going to happen.

I also don't know what that means.... Is that a TV show? Like, one of those teenage soap operas about vampires or something....?

Anyway, I stand by my argument.

[brashcandy]

I also don't know what that means.... Is that a TV show? Like, one of those teenage soap operas about vampires or something....?

And Lindsay Lohan becomes even more irrelevant :lol:

[Lemon Cake]

And Lindsay Lohan becomes even more irrelevant :lol:

Lindsay might, but Mean Girls will never be irrelevant. :P

[oba]

Following this logic, and assuming I'm correct (though I acknowledge I may not be) that Gregor's knighthood was less than a year old, and the war (Robert's Rebbellion) lasted about a year, this would mean that Rhaegar knighted the bannerman (Gregor) of a man (Tywin) whose loyalty he and his father could not count on, in the midst of a war that was threatening to fracture the kingdom. Isn't that a little subject to suspicion as well? That he would knight anyone that he couldn't be sure he could absolutely count on for 100% support......?

Sandor tells Sansa that he was 6 or 7 when Gregor burned him and that Gregor was five years older than he (Sandor) was. This would make Gregor 11 or 12 at the time of the burning. Sandor then says that Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar 4 years later, making Gregor 15 or 16. If Gregor was 17 at the time of the Sack of King's Landing, that makes it likely that more than a year had passed.

I think it makes more sense that Ned is stretching the idea of "new made" beyond a year than coming up with some cloak-and-dagger knighting ceremony as part of conspiratorial plotting between Tywin and Rhaegar while the war was going on.

[Buried Treasure]

It is also possible that Ned never knew or cared about when Gregor was knighted. He may have simply assumed that as Gregor was a 17 year-old he had probably not been been a knight for very long (and certainly would not have fought in any previous wars).

[FanTasy]

Nice thread! That Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar is something that evidently completely slipped my mind - after every re-read :rolleyes:

I think it may be for a nice touch in the build-up of Gregor's character in the books: he supposedly without any hesitation killed the son of the man who made him a knight.

[LuisDantas]

Since when was Rhaegar known for his intelligence and nobility? He always came of as foolish and weak to me...

If you have read A Storm of Swords, there is a character that makes a point of praising his virtues.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

this would mean that Rhaegar knighted the bannerman (Gregor) of a man (Tywin) whose loyalty he and his father could not count on,

The fact that Aerys did not trust Tywin does not necessarily mean that Rhaegar didn't? Aerys was so paranoid he probably thought the rats in the castle cellars were plotting against him, a fact that would not have escaped Rhaegar's notice. He may have knighted Gregor to both reward Tywin in some small way for his past loyalty, and also to try to make up for his father's bizarre behavior and try to keep Tywin glued into Aerys' crumbling power structure.

[Tini]

Not only to keep Tywin glued into his father's power structure. Rhaegar planned some changes in how Westeros was run. What those changes were, no one knows - but if he planned to go against his father in whatever fashion, he'd have to build a power base of his own. His father's closest allies wouldn't support him. But Tywin was not his father's most ardent supporter, and had been a very competent Hand. It didn't cost Rhaegar aynthing to knight a Lannister retainer, and it would not have served any purpose to antagonize House Lannister over such a small request.

[Lummel]

Aerys was so paranoid he probably thought the rats in the castle cellars were plotting against him, a fact that would not have escaped Rhaegar's notice.

Totally off topic but I've always liked the fact that even though Aerys was paranoid, it turns out that they were all out to get him!

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Totally off topic but I've always liked the fact that even though Aerys was paranoid, it turns out that they were all out to get him!

Yeah! Totally like Cersei, right? I mean, she'll show them of course. She'll burn them. Just like da-, ehrm, Aerys. Yes... she'll burn them all... :ph34r:

disclaimer: I have no strong opinion on the secret Targ-hood of any of Tywin's children. Please, don't hate me.

[oba]

The fact that Aerys did not trust Tywin does not necessarily mean that Rhaegar didn't? Aerys was so paranoid he probably thought the rats in the castle cellars were plotting against him, a fact that would not have escaped Rhaegar's notice. He may have knighted Gregor to both reward Tywin in some small way for his past loyalty, and also to try to make up for his father's bizarre behavior and try to keep Tywin glued into Aerys' crumbling power structure.

Even late in the war, Rhaegar was trying to do this. After the Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar urged Aerys to summon Tywin to King's Landing to help deal with the Rebellion. Jaime mentions this to Brienne in SoS.

Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid.

[hotweaselsoup]

On the other hand...

There is one other character in the story that suffers from debilitating headaches: Merrett Frey. Like Gregor, Merrett tries to numb his constant pain, only using alcohol rather than milk of the poppy. Merrett Frey was a squire for Crakehall at the same time as Jaime Lannister, but Jaime didn't care for him because Merrett apparently was a bully. Merrett is also described as having been big and robust during his youth.

He was captured and branded by the female bandit, Wenda the White Fawn. The brand is a source of intense humiliation for him. Moreover, upon his release from the bandits, he was struck on the head by a mace. This head injury caused the headaches which would plague him for the rest of his life.

So, knowing as we know that GRRM likes to weave stories within stories, might we conjecture from the above that perhaps Gregor Clegane was one of the bullying squires that plagued the crannogman in the KotLT story? He would have been very large, even as a 14-15 year old. Can you imagine his humiliation at being set upon and chastised by a mere girl with a tourney sword? Maybe she even dealt the blow that caused his future headaches. If so, we can guess that Gregor Clegane might have developed a deep and abiding hatred for Lyanna Stark.

Within the confines of the narrative, Rhaegar could have knighted Clegane for no particular reason. But he might have knighted Gregor as a reward for some service Clegane did for the prince. Did he help in, or even initiate, Lyanna's abduction? Does the timeline fit?

All just crazy speculation, of course. But I do think there are intriguing parallels between Merrett Frey and Gregor Clegane...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Totally off topic but I've always liked the fact that even though Aerys was paranoid, it turns out that they were all out to get him!

Were they though? No one was (too) serious about overthrowing Aerys until he executed Rickard and Brandon. Even when Aerys thought that Tywin was leaving him to rot at Duskendale, it was really just because Tywin was told that if he entered the city, Aerys would be murdered.

He was captured and branded by the female bandit, Wenda the White Fawn. The brand is a source of intense humiliation for him. Moreover, upon his release from the bandits, he was struck on the head by a mace. This head injury caused the headaches which would plague him for the rest of his life.

So, knowing as we know that GRRM likes to weave stories within stories, might we conjecture from the above that perhaps Gregor Clegane was one of the bullying squires that plagued the crannogman in the KotLT story? He would have been very large, even as a 14-15 year old. Can you imagine his humiliation at being set upon and chastised by a mere girl with a tourney sword? Maybe she even dealt the blow that caused his future headaches. If so, we can guess that Gregor Clegane might have developed a deep and abiding hatred for Lyanna Stark.

I think this is reaching. As others have said, there are medical reasons why a person of such a large size could suffer from headaches. As you noted, Merrett Frey suffered from a traceable head injury. I get the impression that Gregor's are more "mysterious" (i.e. hard to explain) in origin.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree thing has a few problems.

1. There were three bullies who are identified by their knights' sigils. There's a pitchfork (probably Haigh, a Riverlands house), a porcupine and the Frey towers. The only house I found with porcupines was Blount, which is a Crownlands house (they have two, so it might not be them). Without knowing for whom Gregor squired, it's impossible to know whether he could have been one of the bullying squires. Possible, sure, but no way to know.

2. No one figured out who the KotLT was, at least publicly. We kind of assume Rhaegar did, but he kept the identity a secret. So even if it was Lyanna, how would Gregor have known?

3. Why would that hatred of Lyanna Stark been manifested in the murder of Elia Martell and her children?

[Lummel]

Were they though? No one was (too) serious about overthrowing Aerys until he executed Rickard and Brandon. Even when Aerys thought that Tywin was leaving him to rot at Duskendale, it was really just because Tywin was told that if he entered the city, Aerys would be murdered.

Depends how serious you think the plotting connected with the northern alliance and associated with the harrenhall tournament was. Post ADWD it certainly seems that something was going on, but in any case my previous comment itself wasn't too serious.