24 replies to this topic

[Bride of Winter]

Let me begin by saying that I personally subscribe to the theory that the Others, Northmen, Starks, Wargs, CoTF etc. share a connection far deeper than just them living in the north. I believe that they will all work together to bring Winter down everyone else, with the Dragons either being a red herring or the enemy of the north. That being said, I'm definitely not arguing against the Ice vs. Fire idea - IMO it's the only ending I'll be content with. But I'm having my doubts as to certain parts of it, as i'll explain below.

I'm asking this to anyone else who believes that the story will end with Ice vs. Fire instead of Ice + Fire, or even anyone who thinks that King Jon Targaryen First of His Name and Queen Daenerys and the Dragons joining forces to save the world smells a bit fishy. I'd really like to know if any of you have ever worried about the logistics before. I'm having a really hard time trying to word my thoughts, so please bear with me and I'll be happy to clarify anything -


We’re essentially assuming that the ending (a war of ice vs. fire) will be the opposite of what we have been led to believe (ice and fire uniting) – this is our twist. However, many people are still shocked to see the parallels between Jon and Dany and believe that the Starks and Targaryens may unite, and in their eyes this is the twist within itself, even though for us its practically just ground level. (And this isn’t to belittle typical readers, people still have to be perceptive to even pick up on R+L=J and the AA prophecies and such in the first place. But that’s not to say they would look much beyond those things once they piece them together). Therefore, can we even call Jon+Dany commonly expected to the point where there will be a powerful enough impact for readers if we see them fighting against eachother in the end?

Now I understand that any theories regarding the ice-vs.-fire thing have much, much stronger footing than the idea of GRRM just trolling us for the hell of it. But that being said, anyone can see that we’re already in the process of being set up for some sort of connection between the Starks and Targs, with Jon’s parentage, AA and the others and the Dragons, etc. The question is, logistically speaking, how are we going to have R+L=J confirmed, more information on the AA, the Others, and the Dragons that makes it look like Jon will be siding with Daenerys, and still have time to turn that on its head without everything coming out like a massive clusterfuck?

Do you ever worry that we’re looking too far into it, and Ice + Fire is the end game?

[Apple Martini]

I think that Jon and Dany forming a love match would be retch-worthy in the extreme. Too cute, too neat, too prissy and yes, too expected.

And the Targs and Starks have already united. Jon is both ice and fire.

[Sun]

In order to answer your question I would need to define the central plot of this series. What is this series really about? Is it about who sits the Iron throne? Is it about the balance of magic and nature? Is it about the Starks and their destiny? Is it about the Others vs mankind? is it a battle between 2 magical elements represented by Targ/Stark that ultimately end up cancelling each other or balancing each other out? Honestly, I couldn't tell you. And without the answer to that question, which as far as I'm concerned is yet to be revealed by GRRM, there is no way for me to predict the final act, let alone the logistics of it.

[red fork]

If there's a Stark hookup I'm pretty sure it will be Arya and Gendry... I think Robert foreshadowed it inadvertently in GoT "you have a daughter, I have a son, we'll join our houses", except it will eventually happen in a quite unexpected way... I can see Gendry becoming legitimised as well, perhaps by a dying Stannis (who, as a king, can), desperate to carry on the Baratheon line, so Gendry Baratheon and Arya Stark, the stormlands and the north united

Now, I know that Stannis doesn't presently have a clue as to the whereabouts of Gendry (or maybe even know him at all)... but you know how things happen in westeros!

[Fire Eater]

Apple Martini, on 16 March 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I think that Jon and Dany forming a love match would be retch-worthy in the extreme. Too cute, too neat, too prissy and yes, too expected.

And the Targs and Starks have already united. Jon is both ice and fire.

R+L=J will probably be confirmed by Howland Reed when he finally meets Jon. There is also Wylla, Jon Snows wet nurse, who could have been Lyanna's personal maid at the ToJ.

Jon could warg and mount a dragon to prove he has the blood of the dragon.

The theme of the series is not the triumph of opposites over one another but balance, harmony and co-existence between opposites in the same sense as the concept of Tao.

[Bride of Winter]

Apple Martini, on 16 March 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I think that Jon and Dany forming a love match would be retch-worthy in the extreme. Too cute, too neat, too prissy and yes, too expected.

And the Targs and Starks have already united. Jon is both ice and fire.

agreed! I'm in love with the idea of Jon being ice and fire. Jon and Dany together, not so much.

[Falrinn]

Bride of Winter, on 16 March 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

agreed! I'm in love with the idea of Jon being ice and fire. Jon and Dany together, not so much.

Yeah, Jon (assuming R+L=J is true) is a balance of Ice and Fire.  A match between him and Dany would heavily favor the fire side of things.

Plus there's the whole issue of Jon technically being Dany's nephew... I think we can do without even more incest.

Edited by Falrinn, 16 March 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

[Bride of Winter]

Falrinn, on 16 March 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Yeah, Jon (assuming R+L=J is true) is a balance of Ice and Fire.  A match between him and Dany would heavily favor the fire side of things.

Plus there's the whole issue of Jon technically being Dany's nephew... I think we can do without even more incest.

I agree! I've always thought it was weird that people are so omg Jon + Dany = Ice + Fire <3 When Jon in himself is a balance of ice and fire.

Also, I have no idea why it would make any sense to favor fire (as it would in a Jon + Dany combo, or Jon leaving his Stark heritage to join the Targs) when we're being set up for Winter and everything that comes with it.

[Howling Mad]

KIng in the North and a Queen in the South, Others defeated, world in balance, blah .  I hope GRRM has the ending of all endings lined up

Edited by Howling4Reed, 16 March 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[FuzzyJAM]

I don't know if anyone will consider this relevant (or if it's been brought up before), but in GoT just before Dany humiliates her brother, Ser Jorah says

". . .Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass.  It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirts of the damned.  The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."

To me, this seems analogous to the idea of Others bringing never ending winter.  It could be a foreshadowing of ice and fire being in conflict, with both being as dangerous as the other - the ice beyond the Wall, the fire beyond Asshai.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 16 March 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Fire Eater]

Lord Littlefinger, on 16 March 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Quoting "Fire and Ice" by Robert Frost, nice.

[Bayard]

I wouldn't be absolutely against a love story between Jon and Dany.... but how would that be possible in only 2 books??? No way!!! No time. But it could actually be fun to have a political marriage between the 2 of them.... and both having paramours on the side

[servethe_Realm]

Bayard, on 17 March 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I wouldn't be absolutely against a love story between Jon and Dany.... but how would that be possible in only 2 books??? No way!!! No time. But it could actually be fun to have a political marriage between the 2 of them.... and both having paramours on the side

GRRM will just have to write like.....5 more ASOIAF books to fit everything in.

[VivaVictarion2]

Fire Eater, on 16 March 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

R+L=J will probably be confirmed by Howland Reed when he finally meets Jon. There is also Wylla, Jon Snows wet nurse, who could have been Lyanna's personal maid at the ToJ.

Jon could warg and mount a dragon to prove he has the blood of the dragon.

The theme of the series is not the triumph of opposites over one another but balance, harmony and co-existence between opposites in the same sense as the concept of Tao.

I'm very much looking forward to Jon and Reed meeting:

"Jon Snow...or should I say Jon Targaryen...Dun Dun DUNNNNNNNN"

[finishingmove]

Everyone will unite to stop the Others, with strength of arms, magic, dragons -- whatever. They're called Others for a reason. They're vastly different than anyone else living in this world. So, unless GRRM intends to pull of an I Am Legend this is the logical thing to conclude.

The only thing I'm not sure about is will that somehow disturb the natural balance of the world. Maybe it will cause the eastern magic to vanish too (including the dragons). At least, until the end of the next 'cycle' (similar to the Matrix).

Few things I don't think will happen and I find very annoying to read about day in, day out:

1. Daenerys is not the enemy
2. Jon and Daenerys will not get married
3. Jon Snow will not sit on the Iron Throne

[the quiltmaker]

servethe_Realm, on 11 July 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

GRRM will just have to write like.....5 more ASOIAF books to fit everything in.

NO! NO! NO!

He has to finish this story before I die.

[Lady Storm]

I don't think Jon is a balance of ice and fire - his father was a Targ, but that doesn't make him fire - from what we've seen of Jon, he is very much a Stark, identity-vise. Now his ark could move on to him accepting both, or him staying true to "ice".

The reason why I don't see them uniting in a burst of marital joy is because it simply wouldn't make sense to me. They both have identity issues and both have preferred strong and older partners without them (look, I hate Daario, but he's a very straight-forward guy).

And all the parallels might be there not to show us a final union, but to make us understand how they got to the fight in the first place. I don't think Jon's parentage can be a straight-forward issue for the world of Westeros - even if people know about it and there is some proof, it's not like they have media coverage that will get the whole story out to the entire realm. So the moment the readers find out about R+L=J is not necessarily the moment when the realm accepts it. And quite frankly, I can see how Dany might see it as a plot or a mummers dragon. Out of nowhere there is an offspring of one of the usurper's dogs, claiming that everybody got the whole Rebellion wrong and that his mom was a secret lover/wife to the rightful heir. It does sound a bit like a troll story.

[Terwin]

How might ice vs. fire happen? I don't know what GRRM is going to do, but this is just a what if. Everyone seems to assume that Jon is not really dead (also might I remind you that R+L=J is just a theory, although I think it is very possible). If Jon is actually dead (possibly he might warg), then there will be no-one keeping the flimsy peace on the wall. The night's watch will fail and the wildlings will go south. This allows the breach of the wall through several means from within or without.

If ice vs. fire happens I definetely don't think one side is good and the other evil. The whole fire scene is filled with mutilation, human sacrifice, and other brutality, as well as having it's own form of zombies. So the unsuspecting westerosi are caught in the middle of it all.

As for AA, why are we convinced that it will happen at all? There are so many apparently deliberate references to this prophecy in ASoIaF that they can't all be true. Maybe this 'hero' will never come or will not really be a hero at all. One of the reccuring themes I see in this series is that heroism is futile (Ned, Arys Oakheart) or self-centered (Theon, Jaime), and that people have to make morally ambiguous decisions to survive, not some grand tale about a chosen one.

[Free Northman]

The unique characteristic of Martin's world is its lopsided seasons. While everyone goes on about how bad a 10 year Winter is, the fact is that a 10 year Summer is also unnatural. And should technically lead to massive droughts, heatwaves and continent wide forest fires in warmer parts of Westeros and Essos.

So to me the Song of Ice and Fire represents the unnatural fight for dominance between these forces seen through the effect it has on the seasons.

The outcome of the final battle would therefore need to be the balancing of both these forces in a way that the seasons return to the natural cycle - which is 6 months winter and 6 months summer, basically.

So to me Jon is the one that will bring balance to these forces. Ice is represented by the Others, Fire is represented by Daenerys and R'hlorr, and Jon is the one that will "bring balance to the Force." His is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Victory for either Ice or Fire will be equally disastrous. Only balance will save humanity.

Edited by Free Northman, 12 July 2012 - 02:53 AM.