Taking the Adaptation to Task: A TV Critic’s Perspective

[Jory]

I'm just mad about my boy Stannis and even then I can't even begin to imagine how Cat fans must feel right now.

[Marjie Eilie Myatt]

Once again, another person arguing against a strawman. It's not the presence of sex-scenes, but those that aren't there to advance plot or character development, but simply to titillate, that is only put in to serve as softcore porn, that some of us object to.

Don't pull that "strawman" bullshit with me. Some people remember nothing else from their rhetoric or logic class except the Straw Man form of argumentation, as if he's some kind of character from the Wizard of Oz. It's your opinion which scenes are there only to titillate, and I sure haven't heard the director give his "perverts appeal" quote, which could have been a joke, --all I'm reading is somebody else claiming he said it (sorry if I missed a video link somewhere). And I'm pretty sure he's no expert on perversion. Why don't you read some definitions of "titillation" ---where, exactly, is the PERVERSION in titillation?

Gratuitous, titillating (and, honestly, this GoT is not very titillating, but maybe for a 13-year-old boy.....), yes, yes; I say that about the show myself. It's HBO, blah blah blah, 'nuff said.

My post was about "perverts." TV Joffrey = perverse

Brothels and fornicating not automatically synonymous with perverse.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I use the word "strawman" because it's appropriate, and you continue to do it. Nobody has said Brothels and fornicating are automatically synonymous with perversity. Great job once again taking a stand against an argument no one has made.

[Dragonfish]

It's your opinion which scenes are there only to titillate, and I sure haven't heard the director give his "perverts appeal" quote, which could have been a joke, --all I'm reading is somebody else claiming he said it (sorry if I missed a video link somewhere).

Go to the "The Latest News" section of this site. It's at the top right of this page. Click on the "Neil Marshall Talks Blackwater" section. Rejoin the discussion when you've educated yourself on the necessary facts. Or, if you don't have the time, just read my attempt to re-capitulate it:

Neil Marshall was approached by one of the executive producers, who encouraged him to go full frontal in the scene with Bronn and the prostitute. At one point, he even went so far as to say he represented the "pervert side" of the audience, and demanded that Neil Marshall make the scene full frontal. It's pretty clear from this anecdote that the showrunners do not always add nudity because they think it improves the quality of the show; they are adding it in an insulting and patronizing attempt to appeal to the "perverts" of the audience.

[Marjie Eilie Myatt]

Truce. You're not *hearing* me. Lots of valid complaints about gratuitous sex and nudity that do not advance the plot or lead to character development and are merely put in there for the titillation factor (I don't care about the director's joke about "perverts" which some print journalist has told us about). Titillation is not perversion, is not merely for perverts, does not lead to perversion, how ever it needs to be said.

Or I'm a pervert.

[Dragonfish]

(I don't care about the director's joke about "perverts" which some print journalist has told us about).

So now you've gone from "I haven't heard of it and it could have been a joke" to "it was definitely a joke"?

Seriously, educate yourself about what Neil Marshall said before arguing any further. You're embarrassing yourself.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Please keep it civil. Further sniping and other various incivilities will result in post deletions and possible bannings. Thank you. [/mod]

[Miodrag]

Don't pull that "strawman" bullshit with me. Some people remember nothing else from their rhetoric or logic class except the Straw Man form of argumentation, as if he's some kind of character from the Wizard of Oz. It's your opinion which scenes are there only to titillate, and I sure haven't heard the director give his "perverts appeal" quote, which could have been a joke, --all I'm reading is somebody else claiming he said it (sorry if I missed a video link somewhere). And I'm pretty sure he's no expert on perversion. Why don't you read some definitions of "titillation" ---where, exactly, is the PERVERSION in titillation?

Gratuitous, titillating (and, honestly, this GoT is not very titillating, but maybe for a 13-year-old boy.....), yes, yes; I say that about the show myself. It's HBO, blah blah blah, 'nuff said.

My post was about "perverts." TV Joffrey = perverse

Brothels and fornicating not automatically synonymous with perverse.

Watched “The Wire”? None of McNulty’s sex scenes was necessary for the plot advancement or character development. As GRRM and many other stated, hardly anything is necessary, but McNulty really could’ve done without it. His sexual adventures could’ve been pictured differently, toned down, etc. But, does it means those were gratuitous scenes? Wouldn’t say so. Maybe they had other ways to depict his characters or the depth he spiraled down to, but those were pretty effective scenes for that purpose. Yeah, in season 5, they could give us his millionth drinking session with Bunk, but having sex with a cheap blonde on the hood of a car was probably somewhat more impressive to show his state of mind. Maybe “The Wire” also had the exec trusted with “the pervert side of the audience” and he was surely happy with that scene, but, other execs did use that scene for their own, drama purpose.

And that scene – cheap blonde – was the only sex scene in season 5, as I recall. So, even if we accept that as gratuitous, there wasn’t some insufferable amount of it.

I don’t dig sex scenes too much. Strike me as distractions, in this sense: when we see Sandor splitting the guy in half, we know nobody was actually cut down on set. Most of the scenes – violence, conversations, meetings, etc. – have the same amount of “credibility” for us as a viewers, and we, basically speaking, either buy them all (we like the show/movie) or none of them (we don’t like it). Sex scenes, on the other hand, do break that circle of “credibility”, because they’re always more “live” and less acted than other scenes. Let me put it this way: there’s a reason why real-time father and daughter would have hard time playing a sex scene, especially explicit one, while they’d have not a single problem for acting a violence scene, no matter how gross violence is. And the sex scenes are the only ones that real-time father and daughter couldn’t play. That’s the reason why I’m never crazy for sex scenes, they always break some of the “watching spell” for me and tend to pull me off a little.

However, the industry wants/needs them, and I’m powerless there. But, I can still grade them. Sometimes they manage to elevate above the pure “perversion”, like “Cheap blonde” scene from “The Wire”. But, in GoT we frequently get scenes that are perversion, and it was pretty obvious even before Neil Marshal interview. They put it in some meaningless sub-plots (like Vyserys counting dragons to Dhorea; how come D&D weren’t afraid the show would crumble under that much history?), but with this sub-plots being often completely irrelevant, we can see through stated intentions. Marshal only unintentionally confirmed our fears, but we already had sensed that these guys are way deep into “perversion”, because of the often cheap, excessive way of filming sex. I mean, last year, as I recall, some actresses leaved the GoT project because she didn’t want to get involved in some crazy scenes, right? Now, she just may be too sensitive, and we who complain about sex scenes in GoT may be too sensitive, but, for the argument’s sake, do you think there is a possibility that you are defending something that is way off?

GoT was unjustly attacked early on in season 1, for example, for “advocating” cruelty toward animals. But, I’d say their infamy over sex scenes is well earned.

[Kittykatknits]

If it was insulting to any "non-misogynist" viewer, then it's implied that anyone not finding it insulting is a misogynist.

That's exactly my point above. It implies everyone connected to the show either embraces misogyny or is indifferent to it.

I don't think that was the intent really. If you are watching this as a viewer, just as I did, it does not make you a misogynist. The accusation of misogny is not about the viewers. The point is that unnamed Executive Producers (D&D, which one we do not know) has made a point to show scenes of nude women throughout the season purely for titilation or to please what they believe to be a certain segment of the audience. In other words, they want to sexually objectify these women in order to better please their fans. That is misogny. It's not about you the viewer.

We know this is happening because of the podcast interview released after Blackwater where Marshall confirmed that he was directed to do so. It also confirmed that this is a deliberate pattern on this show.

That make sense?

[sillent]

Loved the review, and I agree that you need some heavily negative reviews since all I hear from everyone is praise.

While discussions here are focusing on stuff that isnt as relevant as others. There might be too many tits, but honestly.. if characters stayed true to who they were, if newly created subplots actually made sense - I wouldn't really care if there was a tit on screen. Robb/Cat not knowing about Bran+Rickons death led both of them to be complete idiots when this could have easily been avoided. Not casting Dagmer and replacing him for Reek is another example -- Bran dreaming of his death yet another.

None of my friends have read the books yet, and I can tell you they didnt think the burnt bodies were Starks and obviously no one thought Tyrion had actually died (or was even close to dying). I found myself trying to convince them that they were infact dead. These same friends were also confused about the Winterfell burning.

Pyat Pree's stupidity as well as the whole "Jamie escaping" thing, just very poorly executed. The acting was good, good enough that we still enjoy the series a lot when in fact a lot of these plot changes dont make sense.

The problem is that most of these issues could've been easily fixed. They wouldnt cost anything extra, it would just make for smarter and more realistic television. While there were certain issues with S1 as well, none of them were as big as "wtf this makes no sense" which happened in almost every characters story.

So long story short I just wish the exec who looks at very scene and tries to see if he can fit a tit on screen somewhere, I just wish he could also look at the plot just to make sure if it makes sense or not. We might be a perverted audience, but we're a smart perverted audience.

[Miodrag]

Yeah well... not even i would feel bad if he found her and they rode off into sunset together.

But that will not happen. he may well have a role in finding her and... rescuing her or helping her.

But he is old, and died already with Arya while she is so young... way, way too young for him. Simple, brutal realities of life.

There can never be a real chance for them to end up as an actual couple.

Its a tragedy those two are in.

And that tragedy is just a part of their "relationship".

The ways in which both affected each other - not romantically but psychologically and emotionally, is the main theme.

The purpose of it all.

And maybe... just maybe... the Hound will find true redemption by helping her, when all other failed (even Brienne... though i think that those two crossing paths meant something, that it wasnt just a simple chance with no future relevance).

I would certainly disagree that she is trying to find someone to give her body too, a master that doesnt inspire devotion.

That is far to masochistic and nihilistic for Sansa.

Littlefinger certainly doesnt inspire her devotion, rightfully so, but that isnt her desire - else he would be a perfect fit, wouldnt he?

Certainly one of the most intriguing story lines for many of us, and we all know we cannot outguess GRRM in this.

Although we guessed some other stuff correctly so far, then again... even a blind chicken... eh?

I do think Littlefinger will recieve a few surprises from his protege.

And i can hardly wait. (and hope DwD was a lapse and a low after which only rising up may come...because it hardly could get any worse)

(bloody cliffhangers GRRM! stop doing that!)

Sorry, my English... I meant to say: if any of the couples in ASIOAF is to end up somewhere far, far away, two of them would be my logical choice, because they are maybe the only couple who, I think, wouldn’t need other human beings around (well, Theon and Jayne, also, but they are yet to be officially considered a possible couple in my book).

That’s not to say there is a possibility any of the couples to end up riding off into sunset. Can’t guess what GRRM intends, but am pretty sure he won’t do that to any of the couples. I was just saying in a more general way what would be possible in Westeros not governed by GRRM. With him in the equation, yeah, you’ll probably be right: another tragedy just waiting to happen.

[kg1982]

Funny that you mentioned “The Great Gatsby”, the novel I love every word of and consider to be one of the classics of 20^th century literature. Because, I often tease literary scholars into comparing it to ASOIAF (not the easiest thing in the world to find guys that read both, but not an impossible one). And it isn’t apples and oranges as many would’ve think at first, because they both belong to the American literature of the previous century.

So you can make artificial comparisons to the Great Gatsby and therefore this makes ASOIAF an equal of the Great Gatsby. I'm unimpressed. I'm sure that megafans of Twilight, the Hunger Games, and Harry Potter could also compare their favorite books to classic literature and be equally right. Heck, if I so chose, I could compare Hop on Pop or Green Eggs and Ham to great literature in the past and try to pull important themes from those kiddie books.

I think that ASOIAF is well written; I never got through Fellowship of the Rings but enjoyed Martin immensely. However, I don't think that ASOIAF is really equal to what is rightly considered the "great American novel" which both celebrates the American dream and indicts it at the same time. My feeling is that Martin wrote a nice pop culture book ala Harry Potter and that many of the same problem as JK Rowlings faced.. at the very end no one could touch her. Martin is so big that he gets to do what he wants and doesn't have to deal with critique and editing. I think books after GOT could have used some good editing and suffered because of Martin's popularity.

I don't intend to go into journalistic criticism. People that need to know what kind of magazine Pečat is already know it. The purpose of my post was to point out that it would be prudent to take anything that comes out of that "factory of truth" with a grain of salt. No need to feel insulted by it.

I agree with you about this.. I've always been told to look at context when evaluating the written word. It strikes me as a very partisan rag especially since the author in question is very proud about the inclusion of Noam Chomsky in their magazine. Noam Chomsky is considered very far out of the mainstream in America and is dismissed by most Americans as a nut. I think that there are very well-reputed TV critics who the board could turn to for a critique of the show that would have a mixed, but thoughtful critique. Instead, it's been decided to take a less mature approach and just pout.

[Punchslap]

I don't think that was the intent really. If you are watching this as a viewer, just as I did, it does not make you a misogynist.We know this is happening because of the podcast interview released after Blackwater where Marshall confirmed that he was directed to do so. It also confirmed that this is a deliberate pattern on this show. That make sense?

Absolutely. I didn't think there was any intent to call everyone a misogynist, but I think the way it was written came across as painting those taking the opposite position as being misogynists. I did think the Blackwater comment was ridiculous and I didn't need the scene with Bronn with the whore, but the show isn't just for me and it didn't detract from an otherwise excellent episode.

[Miodrag]

Yeah well... not even i would feel bad if he found her and they rode off into sunset together.

But that will not happen. he may well have a role in finding her and... rescuing her or helping her.

But he is old, and died already with Arya while she is so young... way, way too young for him. Simple, brutal realities of life.

There can never be a real chance for them to end up as an actual couple.

Its a tragedy those two are in.

And that tragedy is just a part of their "relationship".

The ways in which both affected each other - not romantically but psychologically and emotionally, is the main theme.

The purpose of it all.

And maybe... just maybe... the Hound will find true redemption by helping her, when all other failed (even Brienne... though i think that those two crossing paths meant something, that it wasnt just a simple chance with no future relevance).

I would certainly disagree that she is trying to find someone to give her body too, a master that doesnt inspire devotion.

That is far to masochistic and nihilistic for Sansa.

Littlefinger certainly doesnt inspire her devotion, rightfully so, but that isnt her desire - else he would be a perfect fit, wouldnt he?

Certainly one of the most intriguing story lines for many of us, and we all know we cannot outguess GRRM in this.

Although we guessed some other stuff correctly so far, then again... even a blind chicken... eh?

I do think Littlefinger will recieve a few surprises from his protege.

And i can hardly wait. (and hope DwD was a lapse and a low after which only rising up may come...because it hardly could get any worse)

(bloody cliffhangers GRRM! stop doing that!)

I don’t think Sansa is masochistic or nihilistic, just that she’s much more zipped than all the other kids. She’s a POV, for Pet’s sake, and I was totally surprised when she made Winterfell out of snow. I don’t think anything that Arya did, or Bran, or Jon, surprised me that much. A Lannister – yeah, they’re all crazy in a way, so you can expect almost anything of them (though Tyrion does shock me more often than not)... But a Stark girl to be that much of a mystery? I was puzzled, really. Until I came up with the theory that Sansa is not unlike Sandor, and everything fell into place. But she’s not maso/nihi. She’s obviously just way too protective of her inner-self. So, when we meet her, she is talking to everyone and their sister what is she going to do with her life, and we think she’s an open book (and her behavior in AGOT didn’t help her, either). But, what if she was like that all the time? What if she was just hiding in the open? I mean, she does say to Ned that she doesn’t want someone brave, and gentle, and strong. She wants Joffrey. And why? Well, maybe because she, with her kid brain but more developed instincts, senses that Joffrey won’t be that much interested in her. And in that particular moment, he really isn’t.

Sandor is protective of his inner-self for a very dramatic reasons (brute of all brutes as an older brother). Sansa is protective of her inner-self because god knows why, but protective she is. That’s the bond between two of them I was talking about.

[Syrio Foral]

Season 2 reminded me the Lord of the Rings The Two Towers. I did not know why change this and that. Why make Theoden into a pussy. Why have Firamir have Frodo and Sam go to Osgiliath. Truth is my friends. Theres going to be changes.

[Miodrag]

So you can make artificial comparisons to the Great Gatsby and therefore this makes ASOIAF an equal of the Great Gatsby. I'm unimpressed. I'm sure that megafans of Twilight, the Hunger Games, and Harry Potter could also compare their favorite books to classic literature and be equally right. Heck, if I so chose, I could compare Hop on Pop or Green Eggs and Ham to great literature in the past and try to pull important themes from those kiddie books.

I think that ASOIAF is well written; I never got through Fellowship of the Rings but enjoyed Martin immensely. However, I don't think that ASOIAF is really equal to what is rightly considered the "great American novel" which both celebrates the American dream and indicts it at the same time. My feeling is that Martin wrote a nice pop culture book ala Harry Potter and that many of the same problem as JK Rowlings faced.. at the very end no one could touch her. Martin is so big that he gets to do what he wants and doesn't have to deal with critique and editing. I think books after GOT could have used some good editing and suffered because of Martin's popularity.

I agree with you about this.. I've always been told to look at context when evaluating the written word. It strikes me as a very partisan rag especially since the author in question is very proud about the inclusion of Noam Chomsky in their magazine. Noam Chomsky is considered very far out of the mainstream in America and is dismissed by most Americans as a nut. I think that there are very well-reputed TV critics who the board could turn to for a critique of the show that would have a mixed, but thoughtful critique. Instead, it's been decided to take a less mature approach and just pout.

It wasn’t my intention to impress you, just to point that, to me, ASOIAF can stand it’s own even against the novel both you and I highly respect. And I pitched strong sides of one work against strong sides of the other. I may be right or wrong or neither, but it’s not an unheard of approach, really. And I didn’t offended you in any way, nor your favorite novel for that matter, so you don’t have to be that angry so to bring kiddie books into the conversation – but if you want to compare them to great literature, please do, maybe you’ll impress me.

My question is this: if ASOIAF is “a nice pop culture book” for you, what is it about my take on TV rendition of that very “nice pop culture book” that you disagree with so much? I wrote something very similar to that, that “Game of thrones” is a pop hit. So, with your grades and my grades, that would mean showrunners stayed within the quality boundaries of the source material.

Only, I suspect that you don’t consider GoT to be on the same level as “a nice pop culture book”, or otherwise you won’t be so angry at me. I suspect you hold the series in somewhat higher regard than novels. Well, if that’s it, than sorry, but I don’t think it’s possible for you to impress me.

About the magazine I wrote for: Noam Chomsky is way out of mainstream in America and it is a reason enough for you to dismiss the magazine from another part of the world, the magazine you never seen? Honestly, I wouldn’t like to be considered part of the mainstream you respect, no matter the context.

[drm7]

I thought that the article was very well-written - or should I say, very CLEARLY written. The reviewer makes his points forcefully and articulately, and I think that it makes it more persuasive. After stepping away, however, I think a lot of his quibbles are just that...quibbles. "Speed-up" filming? I didn't notice a thing. Tywin Lannister a coward? No, Tywin is a cold, calculating leader. Sometimes not charging into battle is the way to win in the long run, and that's ALL he cares about.

However, I wholeheartedly agree with his critcisms of the handling of Bran and Rickon's "deaths." Catelyn and Robb not finding out about it threw a huge wrench into things.

I do think that the producers SHOULD read the review with an open mind, as there is some good food for thought there.

[Miodrag]

Nah, that talk about Joffrey was because she dreamed too much about songs of knights and princesses and kings and she was to wed a KING man, not some nice chap her father would choose instead. Thats a 12 year old girl there. (or was it 13?)

Besides, she didnt have any idea what Joffrey was like. She just saw he was handsome and a KING.

And it was all already set up and COMING TRUE!!!!

Nah, that talk about Joffrey was because she dreamed too much about songs of knights and princesses and kings and she was to wed a KING man, not some nice chap her father would choose instead. Thats a 12 year old girl there. (or was it 13?)

Besides, she didnt have any idea what Joffrey was like. She just saw he was handsome and a KING.

And it was all already set up and COMING TRUE!!!!

Fantasies of a little girl. And all little girls want to be princesses... or EVEN BETTER - Queens when they grow up. (ok except Arya, you know what i mean, all little girls like Sansa)

All she ever wanted was to give herself completely to this fantasy figure she dreamed about - and have his babies and live happily ever after...

A Maiden..... as pure as snow... :)

Fantasies of a little girl. And all little girls want to be princesses... or EVEN BETTER - Queens when they grow up. (ok except Arya, you know what i mean, all little girls like Sansa)

All she ever wanted was to give herself completely to this fantasy figure she dreamed about - and have his babies and live happilly ever after...

Little girl living in a fairytale.

In a Song.

Remember then what Sandor use to say to her... about Songs? and how he called her?

:)

..........

Then, when we last saw her... a maiden, as pure as snow... :)

Listen, it’s really, really late here in Serbia, and you just may be too much right about some points, so I’ll pull a Tywin and get the hell out of dodge. And to be noted: this isn’t me accepting a defeat, since I still think we agree about most of it. As that knight from the “Monty Python” film would’ve say: let’s call it a draw.

Anyway, been a pleasure discussing all these topics with all of you.

[ServantOnIce]

The author of the article is saying the same things in a more knowledgeable and industry wise fashion that we "bookies" have been saying all season. While Season 1 was near the books, season 2 has started deviating from the books and could harm the long term prospect of the quality of the series.

The best episode of this season, I just watched for the 7th time, "Blackwater" why because other than the staged and unnecessary female nudity in the inn of the Hanging Man, it was faithful to the source material in spite of budgets and minor adaptations.

I agree with his sentiment. "The Godfather" movies one and two are very similar to the books with only adaption things that made them work on the big screen. They stayed close to the source material as Coppola worked with Puzo on it. They cut out the love story that took up about 30 % of the novel (thank goodness, it seemed misplaced in the novel and the novel probably would be better without what amounts to an unauthorized biography of Frank Sinatra).

They added the "baptism/death of the five family heads" scene . . they also took the horse head from the bed post to into the bed and didn't tell the actor they did it so they could see the shock on his face . .

Those things worked, and "Blackwater" worked. The story about he Lion Cub and the crown by Cersei and Tommen on the Iron Throne was pure GRRM.

I think the issue is that D and D, while trying to get things right are putting their own spin on it too much and making huge mistakes. I hope for seasons 3 and 4 they can stick close to the source material and ignore the plot holes they created.

Great review. Yes he did get too nit picky but the Neil Marshal comment about being forced to add unnecessary nudity proved what man of us "bookies" were saying all along.

Homeland did win a lot of awards that I thought GOT was going to win . . .

[Kittykatknits]

Absolutely. I didn't think there was any intent to call everyone a misogynist, but I think the way it was written came across as painting those taking the opposite position as being misogynists. I did think the Blackwater comment was ridiculous and I didn't need the scene with Bronn with the whore, but the show isn't just for me and it didn't detract from an otherwise excellent episode.

I can see where you are coming from but I read it a different way. I read it as if you understand the intent and know thatthe EP did it on purpose and that did not bother you at all, then it is misogny. But, from what you are saying, I actually think we are in agreement though.