Sandor Clegane is Sansas perfect match

[Yvonesan]

I've nothing to add to what KhaleesiDany says or the rape/not rape debate except to say that the definition of rape always includes "without the consent" of the victim and I can't honestly agree that Dany did not consent to sex, I think she merely wanted to make it enjoyable. Can't make anyone change their minds on that if still thinking otherwise. It's probably best to agree to disagree and move on since the subject is off topic here.

I don't necessarily believe in this idea of a "perfect match", but I do think that these kinds of relationships are made, not born. There's no ideal mate for anyone, it's all a process, and a matter of becoming. So Sandor and Sansa have as a good a chance as anyone else to find happiness together, and it has nothing to do with whether we as readers think he's "right" for her or not. All that matters is that they want to find whatever "right" means together.

Perfect match may be the wrong term for it but I do think that two people can be right for each other when both love the other and in doing so, bring a healthy balance to each other's beliefs. I think Sansa/Sandor compliment each other in this way, they both fundamentally have something that the other benefits from and they understand where the other is coming from on the important levels while they treat each other equally and fairly.

This would just be too disgusting and weird Sansa would be a good match for Aegon though, he is supposedly very good looking and not a total shit like Joffrey was, then again anyone after Joffrey would be a good husband.

Maybe Aegon would be a good match for Sansa but we have yet to see evidence of this in the text. As there's no history between them I can't make a judgement on whether they'd make a good couple and I definitely would find it difficult to understand if they suddenly meet and unite in the last portion of the tale when we haven't seen them grow as a potential pairing.

I know this is all pretty subjective but a giant, hulking, pained killing machine that's completely devoted to you is pretty good husband material in Westeros.

:lol: Can't say you're wrong either.

Am I supposed to infer from this that a person who’s agonizing and so distressed as Sandor is has the wits to come up with the correct symbolism for representing the wish to desecrate both physical and emotional love? He’s hurt enough to say that he wants to rip the heart out of a 12 year old girl but sane enough to realize that he’s just expressing himself symbolically?

Don't people use metaphors all the time to express an emotion, without meaning what they say literally? Although I can understand it if Sandor does mean what he just said ....he has just heard that Sansa had to marry Tyrion and he has never been a fan of Tyrion's in the first place, believing him to be as capable of hurting someone like Sansa as any other Lannister. The thought of what could happen to Sansa at Tyrion's hands is too much for him, so his automatic reaction is to think that she'd have been better off with her heart ripped out than suffer as he imagines she will with Tyrion. I think Sandor's thoughts there demonstrate how much he wishes he did more to protect Sansa from such a fate.

[ArabellaVidal]

Don't people use metaphors all the time to express an emotion, without meaning what they say literally? Although I can understand it if Sandor does mean what he just said ....he has just heard that Sansa had to marry Tyrion and he has never been a fan of Tyrion's in the first place, believing him to be as capable of hurting someone like Sansa as any other Lannister. The thought of what could happen to Sansa at Tyrion's hands is too much for him, so his automatic reaction is to think that she'd have been better off with her heart ripped out than suffer as he imagines she will with Tyrion. I think Sandor's thoughts there demonstrate how much he wishes he did more to protect Sansa from such a fate.

To add more context to Sandor Clegane's thoughts regarding Sansa's wedding to the Imp, it needs to be remembered that the tale of what happened to Tyrion's first wife is a story known to many associated with the Lannisters. And there's no better gossip than Littlefinger to spread tales about those he dislikes.

[Yvonesan]

I was thinking of that exactly Arabella. We know that Sandor already had issues with Tyrion and he must have heard stories about what happened to Tysha at the least and may be the reason for his dislike. It doesn't take much of a stretch to imagine how much he fears for Sansa's welfare as a result.

[Lyanna Stark]

Don't people use metaphors all the time to express an emotion, without meaning what they say literally? Although I can understand it if Sandor does mean what he just said ....he has just heard that Sansa had to marry Tyrion and he has never been a fan of Tyrion's in the first place, believing him to be as capable of hurting someone like Sansa as any other Lannister. The thought of what could happen to Sansa at Tyrion's hands is too much for him, so his automatic reaction is to think that she'd have been better off with her heart ripped out than suffer as he imagines she will with Tyrion. I think Sandor's thoughts there demonstrate how much he wishes he did more to protect Sansa from such a fate.

Yep, it's definitely a hyperbolic statement. The interesting thing to ponder is of course why he choose to express himself in that way in his hyperbole (or perhaps what the author meant for us to consider while looking at it).

We're have circumstantial evidence that Sandor is unlike his brother Gregor in that he's not a rapist. At least Jaime seems to think that raping and sacking are Gregor's methods, not Sandor, and in front of the BWB Sandor clearly resents being accused of Gregor's crimes, and distances himself from his brother quite forcefully. Beric also seems to sense that Sandor and Gregor are different in this, and that Sandor has more...honour? morals?

Combine it with the fact that had he really wished to rape Sansa, he had a golden opportunity, but chose not to take it, even at his lowest point.

Perhaps the most interesting tidbit is the "cutting her heart out" though, since it's really a fanciful description. It's not aimed at being a swift death for mercy, neither is it described as the torture he wished on Tyrion (dip him in wildfire and cook him). Instead it is a strangely intimate gesture, and we know from a lot of folk tales that to kill a giant you need to find where he had hidden his heart. Or if someone was killed by magic, it needed to be by piercing the heart. And the heart is where feelings are. Hence that particular choice of words is very evocative.

[Woman of War]

I am very much convinced that Sandor has serious alcohol problems, i. e. that he is an alcoholic. Sansa would not have realized because she has no clear idea what an alcoholic is. Nor would Arya have been able to see this. But what they can see and what we can see via their POVs is that Sandor gets seriously out of control when he drugs himself with alcohol and that he consciously uses booze when he does not know how to deal with a situation. He definitely is not a social drinker who gets a little tipsy or who has to maintain a certain level of blood alcohol to feel ok, he uses alcohol as psycho drug. This is alcolholism and an alcoholic may stop drinking as Sandor did if he is the gravedigger but he stays an alcoholic.

And so what? Why should we play it down? Sandor is a very interesting literary character, at times fascinating to read about with ALL his serious flaws including his drinking, or exactly because of it.

Any long lasting love relationship with a man like that would be a nightmare, would make a woman a co-alcoholic and probably a victim of domestic violence. Sandor is the escapist erotic dream, the sexy beast that should never become true in real life but as long as a girl only dreams she is safe. It may grant her a secret power to feel like the one and only, the chosen one who can turn around the evil beast. But the horror starts if those naive fantasies enter real life, usually we can see the results in sheltered homes for battered women.

But these are only books, we can dream ourselves away and enjoy the so very interesting literary invention Sandor since even if Martin should write Sandor and Sansa together we will never hear her tell the neighbours that "she fell down the stairs". The books will end in time to avoid sad ever after reality, we will not see her hiding the bottles and we will not see his reaction.

And nobody can force us in RL to hook up with an unstable violent alcoholic.

[Quiet Isle]

I am very much convinced that Sandor has serious alcohol problems, i. e. that he is an alcoholic. Sansa would not have realized because she has no clear idea what an alcoholic is. Nor would Arya have been able to see this But what they can see and what we can see via their POVs is that Sandor gets seriously out of control when he drugs himself with alcohol and that he consciously uses booze when he does not know how to deal with a situation. He definitely is not a social drinker who gets a little tipsy or who has to maintain a certain level of blood alcohol to feel ok, he uses alcohol as psycho drug. This is alcolholism and an alcoholic may stop drinking as Sandor did if he is the gravedigger but he stays an alcoholic.

And so what? Why should we play it down? Sandor is a very interesting literary character, at times fascinating to read about with ALL his serious flaws including his drinking, or exactly because of it.

Any long lasting love relationship with a man like that would be a nightmare, would make a woman a co-alcoholic and probably a victim of domestic violence. Sandor is the escapist erotic dream, the sexy beast that should never become true in real life but as long as a girl only dreams she is safe. It may grant her a secret power to feel like the one and only, the chosen one who can turn around the evil beast. But the horror starts if those naive fantasies enter real life, usually we can see the results in sheltered homes for battered women.

But these are only books, we can dream ourselves away and enjoy the so very intersting literary invention Sandor since even if Martin should write Sandor and Sansa together we will never hear her tell the neighbours that "she fell down the stairs". The books will end in time to avoid sad ever after reality.

And nobody can force us in RL to hook up with an unstable violent alcoholic.

Apparently you are unaware that Sandor is having a religious or psychological epiphany at Quiet Isle in the company of monks. This is a story of personal and internal transformation. Even GRRM has said, that the real struggle is the one that takes place within the human heart. Sansa prays for his rage to be taken away. It has been.

[ArabellaVidal]

I am very much convinced that Sandor has serious alcohol problems, i. e. that he is an alcoholic. Sansa would not have realized because she has no clear idea what an alcoholic is. Nor would Arya have been able to see this. But what they can see and what we can see via their POVs is that Sandor gets seriously out of control when he drugs himself with alcohol and that he consciously uses booze when he does not know how to deal with a situation. He definitely is not a social drinker who gets a little tipsy or who has to maintain a certain level of blood alcohol to feel ok, he uses alcohol as psycho drug. This is alcolholism and an alcoholic may stop drinking as Sandor did if he is the gravedigger but he stays an alcoholic.

And so what? Why should we play it down? Sandor is a very interesting literary character, at times fascinating to read about with ALL his serious flaws including his drinking, or exactly because of it.

Any long lasting love relationship with a man like that would be a nightmare, would make a woman a co-alcoholic and probably a victim of domestic violence. Sandor is the escapist erotic dream, the sexy beast that should never become true in real life but as long as a girl only dreams she is safe. It may grant her a secret power to feel like the one and only, the chosen one who can turn around the evil beast. But the horror starts if those naive fantasies enter real life, usually we can see the results in sheltered homes for battered women.

But these are only books, we can dream ourselves away and enjoy the so very interesting literary invention Sandor since even if Martin should write Sandor and Sansa together we will never hear her tell the neighbours that "she fell down the stairs". The books will end in time to avoid sad ever after reality, we will not see her hiding the bottles and we will not see his reaction.

And nobody can force us in RL to hook up with an unstable violent alcoholic.

You just made him sound like Gregor Clegane. An alcoholic would also most certainly not have been allowed to guard Joffrey because he would have been unable to control the urge to drink while on duty. I haven't found any evidence of that in the text.

[bgona]

Sandor alcoholism is a symptom of his depression and inner suffering. Once that it is treated his mental problems, it is easier to cut down that factor (I´m saying easier but not forgetting how difficult it is). And he is already treating them with the aid of Elder Brother. His rage was another symptom.

[bgona]

Anyway how any of them will recognize alcoholism there when all drink so much alcohol!!

[Woman of War]

  Apparently you are unaware that Sandor is having a religious or psychological epiphany at Quiet Isle in the company of monks.  This is a story of personal and internal transformation.  Even  GRRM has said, that the real struggle is the one that takes place within the  human heart.  Sansa prays for his rage to be taken away.  It has been.

Actually I would like to read about GRRM's view on that epiphany as an example of a very personal strugggle. And especially written by someone who is an agnostic (or maybe an atheist) himself like me because coming from that philosophical position I could learn something about what religious belief might do to people, something that is normally closed to me. Martin might be the translator for me here., with all his literary imagination. I am looking forward to it.

Only IF Sandor really is the gravedigger I see his arc not swinging towards a love story realized but towards the role of saviour for Sansa or Arya - and I see him finally dying because of it as personal catharsis.

So "being unaware" is a very incorrect expression since we do not know if Sandor is really still alive. I guess Martin left that open in order to "store" the character Sandor for possible further use depending on how the author wants to develop the story.

[-Sansa-]

How do you know? If he was a super skilled stalker Sansa would have never noticed.

Is interesting that you mention it. Because ,

You know? when i read the books, I had my doubts about whether "the Hound" was prowling around "the little bird". It seemed to me that yes,for example: the night when Sansa collides with Sandor on the serpentine.- Boros asks him why he was not with Joffrey. Boros tells him that Joffrey had been looking for his hound and had not been able to found to Sandor. Where was Sandor, that not is capable Joffrey (and the others i guess) of find him?

However, if discovered at Winters of wind, that he had been prowling of his little bird (he was a Hound , after all ;).) it seems perfectly normal to me:

Do you ever had felt the necessity of be near someone you likes? :)

[bgona]

-Sansa- I don´t believe that the encounters where out of stalking. The serpentine was casual. The Maegor´s Holdfast where more to be near her before getting into battle. The night of Blackwater was, as somebody point out, that he wanted to sense her presence before leaving. The others many were at duty.

[ArabellaVidal]

Is interesting that you mention it. Because ,

You know? when i read the books, I had my doubts about whether "the Hound" was prowling around "the little bird". It seemed to me that yes,for example: the night when Sansa collides with Sandor on the serpentine.- Boros asks him why he was not with Joffrey. Boros tells him that Joffrey had been looking for his hound and had not been able to found to Sandor. Where was Sandor, that not is capable Joffrey (and the others i guess) of find him?

However, if discovered at Winters of wind, that he had been prowling of his little bird (he was a Hound , after all ;).) it seems perfectly normal to me:

Do you ever had felt the necessity of be near someone you likes? :)

If he was 'prowling' after her to protect her he would have followed her to the godswood. And I really hope he wsn't stalking her. Stalking is stalking and the Hound might be fascinated but he's also honest and up-front. Stalking isn't.

[Le Cygne]

Also, the relationship is built on the pages. It did not exist from the beginning. We as readers can follow it and see it unfold. How two people meet, interact, influence each other and build up a connection, complete with moral ambiguity, conflict and occasional improper behavior.

That's where the drama is. And the romance.

I think we have to go with whatever Sansa is feeling, and not discount it. The context is Westeros. I also had no problem believing Dany loved Drogo. And I like that she chose Daario.

I adjust the younger characters up a couple of years or so, like the show did. Sansa is 16, to me (as of the last book), and it would be nice to see her get to choose, too, before the series is over.

I'm pretty much agreeing with everything you say, but I also love the heart symbolism and am certain we were not meant to take every word in this series literally and out of context.

I also agree that Sandor was not an alcoholic. When he didn't have it, he just chopped up a lot of wood. :)

[-Sansa-]

ed Today, 06:54 AM

Lyanna Stark, on 03 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

... He does not follow Sansa around. He does not stalk her...

......................................................................................................

How do you know? If he was a super skilled stalker Sansa would have never noticed.

I even remember that in that particular scene (on the stairs) he becomes frantic because he don´t know where she had been. Do he not know before? Had he lost her track ... ?

In fact, in the books, GRRM often recounts that Sandor was in the dark and Sansa had not noticed him until he appeared: A hunter Hound. ;)

[bgona]

No, he becomes frantic because he was smelling a lie, that she is nervous.

[-Sansa-]

No, he becomes frantic because he was smelling a lie, that she is nervous.

No , she had not yet responded when he yells:

WHERE WERE YOU?!!!!

or something like that ;)