Queen Nymeria a witch?

[tijde]

So I'm rereading GoT, and I just came across the part where Bran is trying to name his direwolf, before his fall. He says Arya named hers after "some old witch queen in the songs." I don't remember reading about Nymeria being a witch in the later books, and it's not mentioned in the wiki. Does anyone know if this is explained, and if so, where? I'm just thinking about the various theories around the significance of the wolves' names, and how they correlate to their Starks. I haven't really subscribed to the "Queen Arya" theories up to this point, but if Nymeria really was a warrior sorceress queen, well, Arya's already well on her way with two of the three.

[Walder Waters]

I only remember her as a warrior queen of the Rhoynar in the time they invaded Dorne. I do not think that in the other books are any references to her having magical power.

[Trebuchet Penguin]

Perhaps Witch as in unearthly beauty, skilled in arms, which is more witchy than you think.

[ARYa_Nym]

We don't know what she did in her later years. Arianne mentioned a book about the loves of Queen Nymeria. I would love to know its content.

I was just thinking that in some ways Arya is a witch.

Her lessons:

“Poisons and potions were for the afternoon. She had smell and touch and taste to help her, but touch and taste could be perilous when grinding poisons, and with some of the waif’s more toxic concoctions even smell was less than safe.”

The KM told her:

"Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn,but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed.”

Arya also loves cats and they follow her around. Her favorite cat is a black one too, Balerion.

She hugged him to her chest, whirling and laughing aloud as his claws raked at the front of her leather jerkin. Ever so fast, she kissed him right between the eyes, and jerked her head back an instant before his claws would have found her face.

"Her favorite was a scrawny old tom with a chewed ear who reminded her of a cat that she’d once chased all around the Red Keep."

& of course she uses magic with the warging.

I was hoping that GRRM would someday be asked why Bran said that about Nymeria though.

I can't get the search engine on the SSM site to work right for me but there's an SSM that says she was a commander rather than a combatant. Maybe she also dabbled into sorcery. Garin the Great was also a Rhoynar and there are also strange magical stories surrounding him.

[jblair]

Powerful women in history were sometimes snidely assumed to have magical powers.

How else could they obtain such greatness, considering their physical weakness, low intellectual capabilities, fragile psyches, and emotion-driven decision-making? Must be the magicks.

[Tommen]

Could just be good old sexism. Perhaps Bran, never really having been interested in learning about female heroes the way Arya has, just heard somebody describe Nymeria that way and took it for truth. It's not unusual for powerful women to be labelled as witches or just plain whores for stepping into typically male domains (e.g. Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I), and the North is very patriarchal in comparison to Dorne.

[Frey Pie]

I always wonder if there are actually wizards in among the populous. I know theres Mel and the Red Guys, supposedly the good fellas. How about the dark side though? Surely they have a few champions? Roose Bolot, Qyburn anyone?

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

The way Bran says it "some old witch queen in the songs" to me obviously shows that Bran didn't really care who she was and didn't really understand who Nymeria was either. He knows a) she is from "the songs" and B) she is old and that is it,

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Ther is maybe some tell of withcraft floating around. Think about it. In war with valyria she succesfully crossed Volantis, carrying around her poeple in boats. Quite impressive feat.

[Groat]

Ther is maybe some tell of withcraft floating around. Think about it. In war with valyria she succesfully crossed Volantis, carrying around her poeple in boats. Quite impressive feat.

How does one get a fleet of 10,000 ships and carry an entire populace of people. Reminds me of Noah's ark more than anything else.

[Melifeather]

I think it's a sexist remark like "bitch". Bitch, witch...same thing.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

How does one get a fleet of 10,000 ships and carry an entire populace of people. Reminds me of Noah's ark more than anything else.

The 10.000 ships stuuf is most likely PR. Just like the fabled 250.000 rhoynar under Garines command.

Now, everybody does say Nymeria came in ships. How can she passed Volantis? That's stuff for legends.

[Fire Eater]

Could just be good old sexism. Perhaps Bran, never really having been interested in learning about female heroes the way Arya has, just heard somebody describe Nymeria that way and took it for truth. It's not unusual for powerful women to be labelled as witches or just plain whores for stepping into typically male domains (e.g. Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I), and the North is very patriarchal in comparison to Dorne.

That could be it.

Nymeria isn't reputed to have practiced magic, Rhaenys may have but not Nymeria.

[Groat]

I think it's a sexist remark like "bitch". Bitch, witch...same thing.

withces be crazy

[ARYa_Nym]

Could just be good old sexism. Perhaps Bran, never really having been interested in learning about female heroes the way Arya has, just heard somebody describe Nymeria that way and took it for truth. It's not unusual for powerful women to be labelled as witches or just plain whores for stepping into typically male domains (e.g. Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I), and the North is very patriarchal in comparison to Dorne.

She was compared to Joan in an SSM once so maybe.

I always wonder if there are actually wizards in among the populous. I know theres Mel and the Red Guys, supposedly the good fellas. How about the dark side though? Surely they have a few champions? Roose Bolot, Qyburn anyone?

From older generations there were rumors that Shiera Seastar and her mother Lady Serenei practiced the dark arts. There was also a mention of Oberyn possibly practicing the dark arts after having gone to Essos.

“He had traveled the Free Cities, learning the poisoner’s trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. He studied at the Citadel, going as far as to forge six links of a maester’s chain before he grew bored. He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company. His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality..it was said that he bedded men and women both…”

Oberyn learning about poison seems to be connected to magic. I see it like alchemy.

[Ice Turtle]

At first glance it seems simple - description made by men afraid of woman in power. But official history in Westeros is written by masters and unlike churches in medieval Europe, maesters deny the existence of magic.

I think that Bran had it from one of the Old Nan stories or some song, he is a child, more likely to know stories than official histories.

As for if she really was a witch - hard to know, it could have been only her Essosi knowledge or even PR she chose to scare her enemies.

[Lion of Judah]

I think it's a sexist remark like "bitch". Bitch, witch...same thing.

Absolutely it is a sexist remark used to taint her accomplishment of conquering Dorne. In that society a woman only succeeds through witchcraft and black magic. A sad stigma in truth.

[jblair]

She was compared to Joan in an SSM once so maybe.

From older generations there were rumors that Shiera Seastar and her mother Lady Serenei practiced the dark arts. There was also a mention of Oberyn possibly practicing the dark arts after having gone to Essos.

Oberyn learning about poison seems to be connected to magic. I see it like alchemy.

Yeah, he almost certainly knew at least enough magic to alter the poison he used on Gregor. There's a little discussion about how it had been magically thickened, but oddly enough the discussion ends there. No one seems to find it eyebrow-raising that the second-most powerful man in Dorne apparently knew sorcery. But then the Westerosi attitude towards sorcery has always annoyed me ("magic totally doesn't exist, even though I know it's required for both pyromancers' wildfire and working Valyrian steel, yet I always forget that when talking about OTHER magic, which totally doesn't exist.").

[Melifeather]

Absolutely it is a sexist remark used to taint her accomplishment of conquering Dorne. In that society a woman only succeeds through witchcraft and black magic. A sad stigma in truth.

How is this different than reality? Successful women today are slut shamed...at least in America. We have yet to see a female President, but, boy oh boy, we currently have 362 men and 76 women in the House of Representatives, and 17 women and 83 men in the Senate. It's 2012 people of America! Women outnumber men 51 to 50 percent, but we only have a 20% of our own sex representing us in Congress.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

Hilary Clinton got Sec of State job because of sorcery! It is known.