thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I have made this claim before but it never seemed very credible because frankly, it lacked evidence. However, after more analysis I think I have found enough evidence to, at least, have the discussion on Lyanna Stark being alive. Before providing evidence from the books, I want to provide a key piece of evidence in the writing style of GRRM that is ultimately what led me to believe that Lyanna Stark is indeed alive. While I was re-reading the books, I realized that GRRM often uses the "death" of a character to signify that a part of that character or a persona associated them is dead while the person remains alive. The best example of that is the Hound and Sandor Clegane. While the Hound died under a tree left alone by Arya Stark, Sandor Clegane is alive and well digging graves on the Quiet Isles. This led me to believe that Ned's fever dream (where he recalls the death of Lyanna) is on of those occurences where the persona Ned associated with his sister died at the Tower of Joy, but Lyanna did not physically die.Now here is what I think actually happened at the Tower of Joy along with supporting evidence.When Ned left King's Landing after the sack, he had a fight with Robert (his first major one) about how to deal with the horrors done by Tywin Lannister and about Jaime Lannister killing the King Aerys. Therefore, I do not think Ned was in any mood to marry his sister to Robert but nonetheless he was dutiful and went to the ToJ to rescue her (add to that the amount of whoring Robert did during the Rebellion).It was mentioned that Lyanna was not fond of Robert so i believe she ran away willingly with Rhaegar. I think what happened at the ToJ was that Lyanna attempted to commit suicide rather than go back to Robert (those were the screams Ned heard while fighting Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswald Whent). When Ned entered the Tower of Joy, the pool of blood stemmed from the suicide attempt and what died at that time was the persona of the She-wolf that Ned knew about his sister. "Promise me Ned" actually meant that Lyanna wanted Ned to promise her that he would not take her back to Robert. Therefore I believe that, while Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn to the Dayne family, Howland Reed made for Greywater Watch with Lyanna Stark and she has been there ever since.Now here is some of my supporting evidence1. When in the crypts of Winterfell, Barbery Riswell tells Theon Greyjoy that Ned brought back the bones of Lyanna, not the body but the bones, therefore, no one saw the body of Lyanna at Winterfell.2. Robert says that the stone mason who made the statue of Lyanna in the crypts does not capture her beauty3. Again when in the crypts of Winterfell Barbery Riswell mentions that its unusual to have three tombs joined together and to have a female in the crypts, that suggests Ned really did not want anyone going to look in there4. When Robb calls his banners, Howland Reed does not send any of his Crannogmen to support his cause (only his kids to plead fealty) but he defends the Crag against all comers, suggesting he is defending something of his importance at Greywater Watch5. Howland Reed has not left Greywater Watch since the ToJ again suggesting he is guarding something very valuable. 6. Ned's guilt stems from what happened that day, as he always felt like he betrayed his friend Robert and that is part of the reason why he accepted to be the Hand of the King, he wanted to make amends for what he did. As I have said many times before, I love a good debate so bring it on boys and girls!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilenadheas Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 If Lyanna is dead, who is Septa Lemore??? Proof enough for me ;)Seriously, I like your points, but I am a firm believer that Lyanna is dead. If GRRM proves me wrong, I bow to your foresight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 If Lyanna is dead, who is Septa Lemore??? Proof enough for me ;)I thought Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilenadheas Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Septa Lemore is Shiera Seastar. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne or the Septa that Oberyn despoiled.Lyanna is dead with a capital D. I'm pretty sure in one of his chapters Ned remembers when she died (separate from the fever dream), straight up then she died in front of him stuff. It's an internal monologue so can not be a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Septa Lemore is Shiera Seastar. It is known.Ya but we disgress . . . . I am eagerly expecting the wave of counter arguments that are about to come my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne or the Septa that Oberyn despoiled.Lyanna is dead with a capital D. I'm pretty sure in one of his chapters Ned remembers when she died (separate from the fever dream), straight up then she died in front of him stuff. It's an internal monologue so can not be a lie.Read what I said about the use of "death" in ASOIAF. GRRM frequently uses different levels of "death" to denote a persona of side of a character's personality that is no more or a change in how a character is perceived by others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 If Lyanna Stark is not the mother of Rhaegar's child, why is she so valuable that Howland Reed has had to personally guard her constantly for the past 15+ years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 If Lyanna Stark is not the mother of Rhaegar's child, why is she so valuable that Howland Reed has had to personally guard her constantly for the past 15+ years?I think she is the mother of Rhaegar's child (i.e. Jon Snow). Howland Reed guarded her out of loyalty to Ned. Ned knew what Robert's reaction would be if he ever found out what Ned did. Greywater Watch was the safest place for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I think she is the mother of Rhaegar's child (i.e. Jon Snow). Howland Reed guarded her out of loyalty to Ned. Ned knew what Robert's reaction would be if he ever found out what Ned did. Greywater Watch was the safest place for her.Still? After all this time? Robert was married shortly after the Rebellion and now he has been dead for a couple of years. Surely she would have come out of hiding by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Howland's wife is Jyana, similar to Lyanna...GRRM likes to play with expectations, in SOS we got Cat's pov when she was killed, several chapters later Nymeria dragged her body from the river and in the epilogue here comes LS. I think that there might be a mystery behind Ned's decision to bring bacl Lyanna's bones but no the remains of his fellow Northmen...Perhaps Lyanna is still around but personlly I think that this would weaken the plot and erase the tragic element of the story. It would be like the version of the Trojan War when Helen was never taken to Troy but the gods constructed a ghostly apparition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Still? After all this time? Robert was married shortly after the Rebellion and now he has been dead for a couple of years. Surely she would have come out of hiding by now.I don't want to get into the timeline of what happened between the ToJ and the death of Robert, who knows if she even survived that long. My main point is that she left the ToJ alive and with Howland Reed, after that, it would be far too speculative for me to get into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned... Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black... "I bring her flowers when I can," {Ned} said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."I don't think that is a metaphor for a character's personality change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Howland's wife is Jyana, similar to Lyanna...GRRM likes to play with expectations, in SOS we got Cat's pov when she was killed, several chapters later Nymeria dragged her body from the river and in the epilogue here comes LS. I think that there might be a mystery behind Ned's decision to bring bacl Lyanna's bones but no the remains of his fellow Northmen...Perhaps Lyanna is still around but personlly I think that this would weaken the plot and erase the tragic element of the story. It would be like the version of the Trojan War when Helen was never taken to Troy but the gods constructed a ghostly apparition.I think Ned brought the bones of someone else all together and pretended they were Lyanna's. On the contrary, I think that it adds to the tragedy of Ned being torn between the wishes of his beloved sister and his honour and loyalty to a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 I don't think that is a metaphor for a character's personality change.Its not a personality change but a part of someone who dies. Look a LS, The Hound, I believe that what that describes is Ned seeing the sister he knew and love die (the energetic, she-wolf, horseback rider) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymouseuser Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 If Lyanna Stark is not the mother of Rhaegar's child, why is she so valuable that Howland Reed has had to personally guard her constantly for the past 15+ years?Well presumably because if she went back she'd have to marry Robert - the man who killed Rhaegar (hope spelling's right - I get the Targ names mixed up all the time) and she didn't want to. Later she wouldn't be able to just show up and say "fooled ya!", really would she? But perhaps I'm clutching at straws since I'm not a big fan of the R+L stuff. I'd like Jon just to be Jon.Here's a thought: maybe she married Howland Reed and is the mother of Jojen and whatshername (sorry again).Ooh, I remembered Meera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Other Others Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Notice it's bones. A body won't decay in three months although I may be wrong and it wouldnt take any more than that to get to the North by ship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Notice it's bones. A body won't decay in three months although I may be wrong and it wouldnt take any more than that to get to the North by ship...Thats my point, bones are bones. It could be anyone. And Barbery Riswell is very clear on that, it was not the body but the bones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Notice it's bones. A body won't decay in three months although I may be wrong and it wouldnt take any more than that to get to the North by ship...You've got to remember that a body is going to stink worse than Garth the Gross in that time. I don't think it's unusual that the Silent Sisters would reduce a body to bones either by boiling or feeding to ravens or both. Catelyn stark receives Ned's bones not his body either. I believe Rickard and Brandon were also sent as bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic 8 Ball Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Septa Lemore is Lyssa Tully. Either that, or the female inkeep whose teeth were stained red from sweet leaf.Or a still living Rhaenys Targarayen. Or Septa Mordane. Heads on spikes can be faked.No wait, Septa Lemore is Tysha. The stretch marks are from Tyrion's or the Lannister guard's lovechild.Or maybe Septa Lemore is Tyrek Lannister, who was actually female all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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