405 replies to this topic

[The Undead Martyr]

Mayans and Popes oh my!

sToNED_CAT, on 05 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yes it does. But it benefits directly just the construction workers, and that's just small part of workforce. Another problem is, when investments into the infrastructure end (and they can't last forever) those people are unemployed again. Not enough permanent jobs created...
Those manufacturing jobs lost in last 2 decades coming back would be more permanent solution and with much less expenses from government.

But do you know, what would be (IMO) good compromise kind of stimulus, both left and right might find appealing? Not tax or debt funded stimulus, but forced investment.
Let me explain: Rich people would by forced to invest their money in some sector American economy, that is generally considered in need of improvement, for example alternative energy. Let's say 20%  added to their typical tax rate, but those 20% wouldn't be taken by state and redistributed, instead state will just tell the people, they must invest it into nuclear, hydro, wind, solar or geothermal power plants in America. Now what kind of energy they choose and where they invest, that's completely their choice.
The advantages are :
1. Less corruption, government favoritism and the decisions should be driven by sound market factors (not like govt subsidies).
2. Creation of jobs in US private companies and reviving the economy
3. Rich people might find it more acceptable, when compared to taxes, because they would still own their investments and should make a rpofit when they invest wisely.

Of course you can't use it to build things like roads or schools, because everyone knows those would be likely unprofitable. On the other hand energy production is almost always profitable enterprise.

That's market interventionism right there.  While I definitely agree that incentives like this are great compromises and (in theory) are win-win, it'd be hard to pass with the "limited government" types...
not to mention the oil lobby.
Overall, though, this is definitely the sort of thing we should be talking about as a country.  IIRC America gets better solar exposure than Europe meaning solar power is even better for us.
Infrastructure is a passive investment, and it's more than just roads and such.  You need to maintain it (there's a lot of bridges that need maintenance) and in the case of trains and the like. there's the conductors, air-traffic controllers etc. to employ.

[The Undead Martyr]

On the topic of China, nominal GDP is half of ours.
why doesn't anyone mention Japan, the third runner-up?
There's a bunch of regional disputes going on, and the Philippines and Vietnam are refusing to stamp the current Chinese passport because of some territorial dispute.

Obama's spent quite a lot of time in Southeast Asia IIRC.  Smart man.

[Fez]

George Takei wants his taxes to go up:

Quote

In the coming weeks, Congress and the President must come to an agreement on taxes and spending, or face the dreaded “fiscal cliff” no one wants to jump off. I’m just one citizen, but here’s what I have to say for what it’s worth: Tax me higher.

I didn’t grow up wealthy. In fact, when I was a little boy, the government took everything away from my family and shipped us off to an internment camp. Years later, when we returned to Los Angeles, we had to scrape our way up from nothing, living on skid row and saving our money, until my parents could start up a cleaning business and move us slowly and steadily back into a middle class lifestyle. I know what it’s like to be dirt poor, and to struggle to make it in this country.

But as an actor today, I enjoy a lifestyle my parents probably never dreamed of. Despite how this country has at times misstepped and mistreated us, I love America and believe in her promise of providing equal opportunity for all. I want to see her back on top. That is why I feel it is not only fair, but my patriotic duty to support higher taxes on the top 2% percent of incomes.

During the first few years of the George W. Bush era, when there was still a surplus, they cut these taxes a few percentage points. These marginal tax rate cuts were never meant to be permanent; none of us who got them expected them to be. We always knew they’d one day return to the levels they were during the Clinton era. To suggest that we now shouldn’t give them up is silly, especially in a time where we are facing huge deficits and a looming “fiscal cliff.”

I don’t want to go off that cliff. So Congress, roll up your sleeves, compromise if you must, but don’t start from the position that my taxes can’t go up. They must, and they should.

Also, I didn't realize he spent time in an internment camp.  I guess I should have, considering his age, but I never thought about it.  Not America's finest hour.

Edited by Fez, 05 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[TerraPrime]

Fez, on 05 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Also, I didn't realize he spent time in an internment camp.  I guess I should have, considering his age, but I never thought about it.  Not America's finest hour.

Yes, and he's put in a lot of effort in the last few years to get this project going. I believe the show is now open.

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/

It's a musical about the Internment Camp experience for Asian Americans.

[lockesnow]

thread fail, this should be called the "Meep Meep edition"

[Fragile Bird]

Fez, even more than the wealthy recognizing they should be taxed at a higher rate, the American public needs to realize that belt tightening has to happen.  Canada had a sick economy, largely due to debt, in the early 90s, but by that point Canadians across the country realized that there was some bitter medicine that had to be swallowed in order to get better.  When I turn on US tv these days, I see more discussion about the economy but I get the feeling that it's just the rich and the upper middle class interested in the discussion because of looming tax increases.  I don't believe for one minute many of the politicians who talk about the middle class.  Many of them are so rich they have no idea what it's like to be middle class.

[Sci-2]

TerraPrime, on 05 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yes, and he's put in a lot of effort in the last few years to get this project going. I believe the show is now open.

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/

It's a musical about the Internment Camp experience for Asian Americans.

Ah, thanks for the info.

[TrackerNeil]

Fez, on 05 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Also, I didn't realize he spent time in an internment camp.  I guess I should have, considering his age, but I never thought about it.  Not America's finest hour.

I heard him speak at the University of Pennsylvania, and he spent a good deal of time on this very topic. He is an engaging speaker and, yes, the internment of Japanese-Americans remains an incredible stain on our nation's history.

[Raidne]

Fragile Bird, on 05 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I don't believe for one minute many of the politicians who talk about the middle class.  Many of them are so rich they have no idea what it's like to be middle class.

Wouldn't Barack and Michelle Obama know what it's like to be middle class?

[Fez]

Fragile Bird, on 05 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Fez, even more than the wealthy recognizing they should be taxed at a higher rate, the American public needs to realize that belt tightening has to happen.

Why?  Federal spending is hovering in the 19% of GDP range, which is where it historically has been.  The problem is that federal revenue is down around 15% of GDP, when historically it has been closer to 18%.  We don't have a spending problem, we have a revenue problem and that's solved through tax increases.

Now we will have a spending problem, in the form of Medicare eventually eating almost the whole damn budget.  But cutting Medicare doesn't solve anything; it just passes the bill on to seniors.  We do need to find a way to address rising healthcare costs, but that's a very different issue than cutting Medicare (or Medicaid).

[Fragile Bird]

Raidne, on 05 December 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Wouldn't Barack and Michelle Obama know what it's like to be middle class?

That's an excellent example of two people who do, because of their childhood circumstances and then grass roots work they both did. Neither were born into millionaire families, were they?  Contrast that with Mitt and Ann Romney.  Do you think they know what it's like to be middle class?  There are lots of millionaires in both Congress and the Senate who haven't a clue.

AFAIK, Michelle Obama's dad worked in a water plant, and she went to elite schools on scholarships.  The president grew up in a single parent household, lived with his grandparents, but after his mother got her PhD I think she got jobs that made her perhaps upper middle class.  But not millionaire rich, no.

ETA:  and those millionaires come in both red and blue stripes.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 05 December 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Ser Greguh]

So, Rick Santorum got himself a job post-election as a columnist for the World Net Daily.

A year ago he managed to win 11 states in the Republican primary.  Today he's sharing web space with white supremacists.  Fun times.

[TerraPrime]

Ser Greguh, on 05 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

So, Rick Santorum got himself a job post-election as a columnist for the World Net Daily.

A year ago he managed to win 11 states in the Republican primary.  Today he's sharing web space with white supremacists.  Fun times.

My MiL Facebooks WorldNet Daily all. the. time.

So I will look forward to reading Santorum's columns!

[Sci-2]

TerraPrime, on 05 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

My MiL Facebooks WorldNet Daily all. the. time.

So I will look forward to reading Santorum's columns!

Does she do it for a sense of irony? I used to check its contributors out for a lark but the endless whining disguised in tones of hypermasculinity just became tiring.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Greguh, on 05 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

So, Rick Santorum got himself a job post-election as a columnist for the World Net Daily.

A year ago he managed to win 11 states in the Republican primary.  Today he's sharing web space with white supremacists.  Fun times.

Water does seek its own level.

[Fragile Bird]

TrackerNeil, on 05 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Water does seek its own level.

That made me burst out in laughter!

[TerraPrime]

sciborg2, on 05 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Does she do it for a sense of irony? I used to check its contributors out for a lark but the endless whining disguised in tones of hypermasculinity just became tiring.

Nope. She wouldn't know what irony is if it paints itself blue and dance naked in front of her. She's the singularity point where Poe's Law collapse. It is her that gave me faith in the infinite variety of human experience, even the ones that are completely nutso, imo.

[The Iceman of the North]

So, does she still try to save you from your life of sin?

[TerraPrime]

The Iceman of the North, on 05 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

So, does she still try to save you from your life of sin?

She knows better to not do that. My SO is very no-nonsense about this stuff. If she says antigay things in front of him, he'll leave and not call her until she apologizes. It has happened before. So now she just not say things in front of us. But thankfully, SO's siblings are all supportive, so they gave no quarters either if she says anything other than supportive to them about us.

In otherw words, she still thinks a lot of things that are anti-gay, but she knows better than to express that near this side of the family.

However, she does spam her Facebook page with all sorts of links, some of which do contain anti-gay crap. But oh well, it's Facebook, and thanks to how-to advice from this board I have muted her stream.

[snake]

The Undead Martyr, on 05 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

On the topic of China, nominal GDP is half of ours.
why doesn't anyone mention Japan, the third runner-up?
There's a bunch of regional disputes going on, and the Philippines and Vietnam are refusing to stamp the current Chinese passport because of some territorial dispute.

Obama's spent quite a lot of time in Southeast Asia IIRC.  Smart man.

Well according to this article Obama's trip to Asia didn't go that well at all.

And Peter Lee thinks Asia should be worried about extra US attention.