Court of Law, v3: Jaime Lannister

[Top12Gun]

Welcome to the 3rd installation of the “Official court of law” for this board. In this thread we will debate and pass judgement on character crimes from the work ASOIAF. As judges we bear a burden of upholding the integrity of our court so being impartial is imperative, keep all arguments in a legal context that suit the standards of this court. All posters are welcomed to make their case, at the end of your argument pass your judgement and sentence!!!!

The rules: Every poster has one vote (per charge) of guilt or innocence.

**For a guilty verdict, your options are:

• Send them to the wall. (same as prison sentence)
  
• Death by sword. (Clean and quick)
  
• Death by flames. (An ode to R’hllor)
  
• Death by flaying. (oh boy)
  
• Monetary fine
  
• Exile and/or
  
• Stripped of land/title.
  
• Prison sentence
  

**If you find the character innocent, simply state innocent after your argument.

As for as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court or ruling body.

**You can also vote for charges to be dismissed (majority rule).

**At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules. Only the nominated character will be discussed, however, you can indict characters you also find culpable, as part of your ruling, and they can be added to the docket.

**Votes can be changed before they are counted, but do so in your original post.

Posters can just cast a vote, which is your right, but try to state a case as well. Your opinion actually matters and it may serve to change the vote of another judge.

*Do not take it personally if your favorite character is being torn to pieces. Everyone is fair game.

http://asoiaf.wester...r/#entry3893576

http://asoiaf.wester...ol-2robb-stark/

This court now brings to the docket, the following charges against Ser Jaime Lannister:

1. Incest

Ser Jaime Lannister maintained a sexual relationship with his sister Cersei Lannister for 21 years. The products of this relationship are Joffrey, Myrcella & Tommen "Baratheon".

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

In the commission of Charge 1, Ser Jaime Lannister also committed treason, by sleeping with the Queen during her husband's reign.

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

During his service in the Kingsguard during the reign of Aerys II, Ser Jaime Lannister witnessed and failed to prevent multiple instances of Rape perpetrated by King Aerys II on Queen Rhaella.

4. Regicide

During Robert's Rebellion, Ser Jaime Lannister of the Kingsguard attacked and slew the King he was sworn to defend and protect.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Ser Jaime Lannister mustered men, and attacked the Hand of the King and his company in the streets of King's Landing

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

In his acts detailed in the previous two charges, Ser Jaime broke the vows he swore as a member of the Kingsguard, to defend the the King with his life. He also ignored this oath in fathering three children in incest with his sister, Cersei Lannister.

7. Attempted Murder

While visiting Winterfell, Ser Jaime was observed by 10 year old Bran Stark in the act of sexual relations with his sister Cersei, the Queen. Upon realizing this, he pushed the boy from the tower in which they were observed. Ser Jaime has confessed to this charge:

"I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health. Yes, I meant for him to die." ~Ser Jaime Lannister, ACOK, Chapter 55.

Counselors, present your agruments.

[ab aeterno]

Could I just suggest that specifically sleeping with the King's wife should be on the list of charges, separately, rather than just incest?

[Top12Gun]

Could I just suggest that specifically sleeping with the King's wife should be on the list of charges, separately, rather than just incest?

Done. :D

[ab aeterno]

1) Guilty by definition and admission.

2) Guilty by definition and admission.

3) Not guilty by reason of sworn vow.

4) Guilty by reason of oathbreaking and admission.

5) Not guilty by virtue of Lord Eddard Stark having resigned his position. Guilty of assaulting a high lord.

6) Guilty by virtue of admission to the above three crimes.

7) Guilty by admission.

For charge number 4, sent to the Wall, however, overridden by charges 1,2,3, 6 and 7, death by the sword.

[danm_999]

Bit rough to charge him for both upholding an oath in 3 (aiding and abetting a rape) and for breaking an oath in 4, 5 and 6. Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't there.

Regardless, Jaime gets the Wall for 7, attempted murder.

[straits]

Beheaded for regicide. Hanged, drawn and quartered for attacking the monarch's authority (Robert). Then skin the limbs and drape them in black, send them to the Wall. I'm not sure which should be done first though.

But I think he's the first convict who can't escape the guilty verdict on any count.

[ab aeterno]

Bit rough to charge him for both upholding an oath in 3 (aiding and abetting a rape) and for breaking an oath in 4, 5 and 6. Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't there.

I agree, but this is Jaime's central dilemma, so I think it is fair.

[Top12Gun]

Bit rough to charge him for both upholding an oath in 3 (aiding and abetting a rape) and for breaking an oath in 4, 5 and 6. Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't there.

Regardless, Jaime gets the Wall for 7, attempted murder.

I considered that, but ab aeterno states exactly why I included it:

I agree, but this is Jaime's central dilemma, so I think it is fair.

[blackwing]

1. Yeah, I don't think incest is the real point there. But he fathered bastards on the queen, so guilty there.

2. Could do nothing about that. It was a married couple, and the king. So his hands were bound, just like with Roberts whoring. Not guilty.

3. He killed a tyrant who planned a massacre by burning KL with all inhabitants. Everyone has a natural right to resist tyrants, everyone who can do sth about it has the duty to, imo. So absolutely not guilty here. Should even be considered as mitigating towards other charges.

4. Not guilty. Ned wasn't hand at that time and his wife had abducted Jaimes brother Tyrion.

5. Guilty, although the charge is forgivable as fas as 3. is concerned.

6. Guilty.

Jaime should keep his life, but be stripped of all titles and lands and being exiled.

[franko99]

This court now brings to the docket, the following charges against Ser Jaime Lannister:

1. Incest

Is incest even a crime?

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

Guilty. He betray the trust of his King, and commited treason to the whole realm (by making everyone believe Joffrey is the true heir to the Iron Throne, it's the seed of the War fo the 5 King)

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

Not guilty

4. Regicide

Aerys was a tyrant who wanted to burn KL, killing him was his finest hour. Not guilty

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Lord Stark wasn't the Hand by then, and his wife has kidnapping his brother. Not guily

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

Not guilty

7. Attempted Murder

Guilty.

Sentence: To the Wall

[Runaway Penguin]

1.+2. High Treason. Incest or not, he was with Queen. Guilty.

3. Oath-bound and under orders. While this is not exonerating circumstances, intervening would be suicidal - he did act under duress, on the pain of pain. Morally wrong, but legally right. By Westeros laws, Not Guilty.

4. Regicide had mitigating circumstance, as did oathbreaking connected with it - lives of all inhabitants of the King's Landing. Morally right, legally wrong, but anyway pardoned by following lawful King. Prosecution impossible. Not Guilty.

5. He did not attack Hand. Not Guilty. He commited murder of common men-at-arms. Guilty.

6. Guilty.

7. Guilty.

1.+2. Choice of Wall or Sword

3. No charges.

4. No charges.

5. Monetary fine

6. Stripped of titles (he was stripped of Land when joining the Kingsguard)

7. Choice of Wall or Sword

Final judgement: Accused is to be stripped of all titles. He has to compensate for the murders done under point 5. Accused can choose between Sword or Wall.

[Golden&Crimson]

• 1- Incest is not a crime in Westeros, more like a sin/moral fault in some cultures and situations, and he did obey to a member of the royal Family; Acquited.
  
• 2- Obedience to the wishes of someone of the Royal Family and loyalty to the King is essential, the acused is not to blame for the lack of clarity on the aplication of the said rules; Acquited.
  
• 3- There is no proved "rape" of Aerys to Rhaella, neither any recorded acusation done for the queen regarding the acts of her husband, and it is good to remember that the acused was doing his duty in the most seriuos way; Acquited.
  
• 4- The acused upholded the highest objective of a true knight: protecting the innocents (about 500.000 men, women and children in KL), by killing someone that, automatically loosed the kingship, because the said person wanted to murder thousands of their previous subjects; Acquited and Commended for saving the people of King`s Landing.
  
• 5- Eddard Stark wanted to leave the post and, furthermore, it was proved later that the said Eddard Stark (he confessed to thousands of people in KL) was a traitor to the good King Robert I and executed by his heinous crimes, it is also good to note that the brother of Jaime Lannister was under the power of Catelyn Stark (wife of Eddard Stark and herself a well knowed traitor) what can also help to explain the, totally understandable, acts of the acused; Acquited.
  
• 6- Has stated previously, Aerys II loosed automatically the right to be called "King" after he tried to murder an enormous number of previous subjects, and incest is not a crime, only a sin or moral fault acording to some societies ans situations; also obeying to the wishes of the Queen is respecting his oath; Acquited and, once more, Commended for saving the people of King`s Landing.
  
• 7- First: everyone in the Kingdom knows that Brandon Stark was unfortunate in falling from a tower and - Second - we could not take seriously a "confession" that the acused made, when he was under the power of Catelyn Tully (with a familiar story of mental instability - Lysa Arryn) and in some dire conditions in the dungeons of Riverrun, surrounded by Riverlands« inhabitants and Northerners (the last well knowed by the murderous acts and cruelty toward prisioners - Karstarks and Boltons); Acquited and deserving the Public Excuses from House Tully and House Stark.
  

-_-

[Fragon]

I guess everyone didn't understood the rules, we judge them as omniscient readers knowing the exact facts and motivations, no other courts judgements or pardons is valid here, only ours.

1+2) Guilty mostly because of 2) as 1 is more a cultural/moral law that's hard to judge: wall or beheading

3)+4) Dismissal: extenuating circumstances, the King was mad and getting madder everyday it's normal that men sworn to obey him get in a difficult dilemna when their oaths are not clear about these circumstances, he was not ready to resist yet at 3) but at 4) he did the right thing and saved many people. Smallfolk's life comes before a mad king's life in my books.. (A shame that the timing was bad and that allowed Tywin Lannister to murder Elia and her children though. I would charge Jamie of not stopping Clegane and find him guilty of that but I'm don't remember if he was aware or able to know about that at the moment.)

5)Guilty of assaulting a high lord: wall or beheading

6) Dismissal, Useless charge, these are covered by other charges no need in bringing them up again, yes he did commit many oathbreaking but in some cases it was the right thing to do.

7) Guilty, wall or beheading.

So finally, wall or beheading. I let him have the mercy of the Wall because people worse than him has been there very often and as the readers we know the reasons why he was pushed to do some of his crimes. He might redeem himself at the Wall that could suit him well.

[Independent George]

1. Incest - Guilty

2. Treason - Guilty

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape - Not Guilty. Regardless of the modern mores, marital rape is not a crime in Westeros, and it was not for Jaime to enforce anyway.

4. Regicide - Guilty, albeit with mitigating circumstances.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King - Not Guilty. At this point, Ned had resigned, and was never directly attacked regardless. He is guilty of killing Ned's retainers.

6. Sundry Oathbreaking - Guilty

7. Attempted Murder - Super Duper Extra Guilty

Penalty is death by beheading, with the option of taking the black if he so chose.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think it's laughable that you have 3 and 4 both on there: he's supposed to protect the queen from the king, but not the city from the king? No matter what he does in those two situations you'd have him up here for some crime.

Other than that

1. Guilty

2. Guilty

3. Inot guilty

4. guilty

5. Not guilty- didn't attack Ned, and was also defending his brother.

6. Guilty I guess, but christ how do you not break some of those oaths?

7. attempted murder - guilty

penalty - maybe the Wall for the Bran thing but seriously what the hell kind of Kangaroo court is this? If 3 is a crime than 4 shouldn't be.

[ab aeterno]

penalty - maybe the Wall for the Bran thing but seriously what the hell kind of Kangaroo court is this? If 3 is a crime than 4 shouldn't be.

Three and four are opposites. Upholding the KG oath vs breaking it.

[Top12Gun]

I think it's laughable that you have 3 and 4 both on there: he's supposed to protect the queen from the king, but not the city from the king? No matter what he does in those two situations you'd have him up here for some crime.

Quite. This is something I was looking forward to: Seeing what is valued more, by what charges he's found guilty on. Yes, some of the charges will have little merit - so find him innocent or dismiss them! Simple.

[Starfell]

1. Incest

Dismissal until the status and punishments regarding incest under Westerosi law can be established

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

Verdict: Guilty both parties have admitted to their continuing sexual affair while Cersei was married to King Robert

Sentence: Banishment to the wall

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

Verdict: Innocent It is my view that responsibility for the rape lies solely with the attacker King Aerys II Targaryen

4. Regicide

Verdict: Guilty

Sentence: In view of the exceptional circumstances surrounding the regicide and loss of life avoided by it Jaime is to be stripped of his rank and position within the Kingsguard and passed over for Casterly Rock

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Verdict: Guilty, he organised the attack which wounded Eddard Stark and killed his men despite not personally harming him

Sentence: Banished to the Wall

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

Verdict: Guilty

Sentence: Stripped of rank and position within the Kinsguard and disinherited

7. Attempted Murder

Verdict: Guilty

Sentence: Banished to the Wall

[TheMysteriousOne]

I think incest is illegal in Westeros. It's never been said, but it most likely is.

[LordBloodraven]

1. Incest

Guilty of abomination and crime against nature. Sentence is death by burning

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

Guilty of high treason against the Crown. Sentence is to be drawn to the scaffold for he is not fit to walk on the earth. He's to be drawn backwards at the tail of a horse, to represent his backward nature.His head is to be cut off for the Gods made the head, the supreme part of the body. Yet this traitor misused the Gods work. He'll be hanged by the neck between heaven and earth for he's fit for none. He'll have his private parts cut off for he's not fit to have children. He'll have his heart cut off, for in there he conceived this treason. He'll have his head cut off for in there he developped what his heart conceived. His body will be quartered and hung to be devoured by the birds in the air. His head is to be set upon a pike and be left on the ramparts of the Red Keep as a reminder for all of our people, small and great, of the consequences of treason and plot

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

Not Guilty

4. Regicide

Guilty of oathbreaking. Stripped of the honour to be member of the Kingsguard and sent to the Wall.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Guilty. Heavy fine

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

This charge is to be dismissed on the grounds of its lack of logic and its contradiction of the 4th charge

7. Attempted Murder

Guilty. Death by the sword