Court of Law, v3: Jaime Lannister

[Clariana]

Point 1: Appeal overruled (and noted for the record) on the basis of the fact that that the defendant is indeed being tried (in absentia), under his own laws. Everything but charge 3 is explicitly detailed in Westerosi law, and according to the defendant himself, 1) The Queen was being assaulted in a way notable and brutal enough that he considered action; 2) They were sworn to protect the Queen as well.^[1] Whether this extends to protection from the King is purely a matter of interpretation. The court will allow it, and if the jurors find it to be unjust to include it, they are free to dismiss it.

Point 2: Overruled. Given his oath to protect the Queen, whether or not the charge would be brought against him, as you said, he must be tried according to his own laws, and breaking the oath of the Kingsguard is a crime. Therefore, this court is left with no choice but to charge him and let the jurors decide. The charges can be dismissed if this is how the jurors interpret it, but the court will let it stand.

Point 3: The court has given this quite a bit of perfectly competent consideration. However, I'm open to any suggestions about what this higher forum might consist of before rendering my judgement. :)

_{[1]AFFC, Chapter 16.}

If the court itself acknowledges that the third charge is not extant in Westerosi law how can it still deem it apposite to bring it? I would submit that the court in so doing is acting ultra vires, beyond its powers and jurisdiction.

As the further clarification adduced by the court at point 1) I would express my gratitude for the same, however this advocate notes that the charge is "aiding and abetting rape", not assault or battery of the Queen's royal personage. Should the charge have been pleaded as "aiding and abetting assault or battery", it would have been a valid as there is nothing within the marital vows to explicitly condone such criminal acts. The same cannot be said of rape and I would refer the court once again to my submission on this point at 34 above.

Once again I would urge that the court pay attention to the finer points of law.

:bang:

[Knight Of Winter]

All kinds of charges are laid down here - ranging from ones lawful but morally disgusting (like charge 3) to exact opposites - charges morally OK but unlawful (charge 2). Well, since the court and judges base their verdict on law (and not on their opinions about what is moral), I will also do so this post.

1. Incest - not guilty. I'm not sure if incest is viewed "only" as wrong and disgusting, or also as unlawful in Westeros. Since I think it's not against the law - I'll vote "not guilty"

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen - guilty. According to Westerosi customs, this is a grave and severe charge - and factually we know it's true.

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape - not guilty. Well, it would be "guilty" under 21st century laws, but it's "not guilty" in Westeros.

4. Regicide - not guilty. Any sane court must take into consideration circumstances of the deed, and here Jaime acted in most noble and just way to protect thousands of citizens. If he let them die, the charge would probably be "Aiding in mass murder". This particular charge reminds me on Dunk's trial in "the hedge knight" - with "vows" and "rules" on one, and "morale" and "justice" on the other side of accusation.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King - guilty. No explanation required.

6. Sundry Oathbreaking - not guilty. Same as charge number 1 - is oath-breaking unlawful or just "wrong".

7. Attempted Murder - guilty. Charge and truth as as plain as day.

sentence: death by sword. It grieves me to say so, especially after Jaime's improvement in ASOS and AFFC, but only just punishment, according to Westrosi law, for Jaime's crimes is death.

[The Fallen]

If my fellow judges would help me solve a legal conundrum: what is to be done if on a given charge relative majority of judges votes GUILTY, but, when taken together, NOT GUILTY and DISMISSED comprise an absolute majority of votes?

Wouldn't it be contrary to the sense of justice if an accused in such a position were to be found guilty?

I think a dismissal and not guilty should be counted as separate charges. First, a call for dismissal means that the charge should be dropped or not included, whereas a charge of not guilty means that the charge was valid and the defendant was found to be innocent of the charge. Secondly, a call for dismissal can work for a defendant also.

However, my esteemed colleague Mr Fixit brings up a valid argument that our fellow judges can be misinterpreting and/or confusing the meaning of "dismissal' and "not guilty". Taking this into account and to be fair to the defendant(s), I call for the opening post to be amended so that it clearly explains what each verdict means and to advise, but not lead, our fellow judges to seriously weigh their verdict and the impact it can have on the defendant.

Lastly, a dismissal of a single charge does not necessarily change the final verdict for Jaime Lannister, as the more important verdict is the overall and final verdict. Also, one charge of guilty can supersede all the other not guilty verdicts for other charges. In other words, Jaime can be found not guilty of all but one charge and still be sentenced to death or to take the black.

[Alester Florent]

I'm slightly alarmed at the lack of distinction drawn by a number of judges regarding the meaning of "aid and abet". It does not mean "witnessed and failed to intervene". If it did, pretty much everyone who's ever been in a bank while it was held up, including the cashier, the hostages, etc. was guilty of aiding and abetting grand larceny, to choose just one of many, many potential examples.

[Where Boars Glow]

1. Incest

Not a crime....so guilty with a penalty of being called gross. Loss of house and title imposed by father.

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

Prove it.....No DNA evidence available. If you are charging Jamie with treason you should use the same sword on eddard for his part in R + L = J

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

This wasn't against the law...only against any real code of decency. If anyone should feel bad it should be Selmy.

4. Regicide

Innocent he was pardoned by Robert the new and ascended King.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Gulty although it was later proven that Eddard was a traitor to the crown. I am sure at trial he could have plead to having knowledge of this.

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

Maybe Cersi would have killed him years ago if Jamie hadn't stepped up :) This may have been part of his duty to protect the King by keeping the queen happy :)

7. Attempted Murder

Guilty...no getting around this. Jamie gets the wall.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

1. Incest

Dismiss. Incest isn't any business of the Court.

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

Guilty. Strip of land and title.

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

Guilty - he was sworn to protect her yet didn't. However, the extenuating circumstances were quite strong, including a senior officer telling him not to intervene. Strip of his position as LC.

4. Regicide

Dismiss. Killing the Mad King was justified by Aerys' intent to commit mass murder.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Guilty, monetary fine.

Having his men killed: Guilty, send to Wall.

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

Dismiss. Breaking his vows to defend Aerys with his life was justifiable. Breaking his vow of celibacy is the gods' business, not the Court's.

7. Attempted Murder

Guilty, send to Wall.

[Lion of Judah]

I think a dismissal and not guilty should be counted as separate charges. First, a call for dismissal means that the charge should be dropped or not included, whereas a charge of not guilty means that the charge was valid and the defendant was found to be innocent of the charge. Secondly, a call for dismissal can work for a defendant also.

However, my esteemed colleague Mr Fixit brings up a valid argument that our fellow judges can be misinterpreting and/or confusing the meaning of "dismissal' and "not guilty". Taking this into account and to be fair to the defendant(s), I call for the opening post to be amended so that it clearly explains what each verdict means and to advise, but not lead, our fellow judges to seriously weigh their verdict and the impact it can have on the defendant.

Lastly, a dismissal of a single charge does not necessarily change the final verdict for Jaime Lannister, as the more important verdict is the overall and final verdict. Also, one charge of guilty can supersede all the other not guilty verdicts for other charges. In other words, Jaime can be found not guilty of all but one charge and still be sentenced to death or to take the black.

Point noted.

[The Fallen]

I'm slightly alarmed at the lack of distinction drawn by a number of judges regarding the meaning of "aid and abet". It does not mean "witnessed and failed to intervene". If it did, pretty much everyone who's ever been in a bank while it was held up, including the cashier, the hostages, etc. was guilty of aiding and abetting grand larceny, to choose just one of many, many potential examples.

I agree that Jaime wasn't aiding and abetting rape. He wasn't involved in any way and was actually kept from intervening. At best you can charge him with not upholding his vows as a knight. But that leads to the argument of which vows are more important; a knight's or a Kingsguard's?

Point noted.

Thank you, kind sir.

[Mr Fixit]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

[Claire of House Thorpe]

1. guilty by admission . Punishment: sent to the Wall.

2. guilty. Punishment: beheaded.

3. not guilty due to lack of evidence.

4. not guilty, seeing as he prevented the destruction of King's Landing.

5.guilty for assaulting a high Lord and killing his men. Punishment: sent to the Wall.

6. guilty as charged. Punishment: beheaded.

7. guilty by admission. Punishment: beheaded.

It seems a bit harsh, but Jaime knew that what he was doing was wrong, so he gets the punishment that he deserves.

[Lion of Judah]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

I sent as many PMs as I could I got to page 2. :dunno: Hopefully a vote settles the issue.

[ab aeterno]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I vote in favor of this amendment.

[ed Lannister]

1. Incest

Not guilty from the basis the charges are based on rumours spread around and that he adopted the valyrian traditions and customs and was tutored by a noble valyrian prince and king whose traditions and customs bow to no gods and men and their law.

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen

not guilty on the basis that he adopted the valyrian traditions and customs and was tutored by a noble valyrian prince and king whose traditions and customs bow to no gods and men and their law.

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape

not guilty the noble ser jaime was charged to serve in the kingsguard and protect the royal family from their enemies nothing more nothing less

4. Regicide

Not guilty Ser jaime did his duty to his house no one orders or sheds lannister blood with impunity not even aerys II.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Not guilty Ser jaime did his duty to his house .....no one kidnaps and sheds lannister blood with impunity not even Ned Stark.

6. Sundry Oathbreaking

Not guilty... A lion does not concern himself with the opinion of sheep...ser jaime's oath is bound only to his house by birth the rest are just words spoken and as you know my lords words are wind

7. Attempted Murder

the charges should be discharged........the stark child was falling to his doom hanging by a whisker of his last efforts to grasp for dear life caused by his own mistakes........ser jaime should be discharged from the kingsguard for failure to rescue the child from his impending doom and as recompense to house stark he should be made to foster the stark child in casterly rock till he comes of age as a man

[Knight Of Winter]

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King

Not guilty Ser jaime did his duty to his house .....no one kidnaps and sheds lannister blood with impunity not even Ned Stark.

You do know that revenging your house is one thing, and lawfulness and morality of said revenge completely other, right? Just because Jaime was revenging his brother, does not mean he was not wrong.

7. Attempted Murder

the charges should be discharged........the stark child was falling to his doom hanging by a whisker of his last efforts to grasp for dear life caused by his own mistakes........ser jaime should be discharged from the kingsguard for failure to rescue the child from his impending doom and as recompense to house stark he should be made to foster the stark child in casterly rock till he comes of age as a man

Sorry, that's twisting the facts. Jaime first rescued Bran - and we're not juding him for that. But then he pushed him out of the window - an active attempt on Bran's life - and that's what's the subject of this charge.

1. Incest

Not guilty from the basis the charges are based on rumours spread around and that he adopted the valyrian traditions and customs and was tutored by a noble valyrian prince and king whose traditions and customs bow to no gods and men and their law.

Well, the guys at Nurnberg trials could also claim that they chose to follow ancient medieval tradition. Following tradition does not make something automatically right.

[The Fallen]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

I vote in favor of this amendment.

[Alester Florent]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

I vote in favour of this amendment.

While, as noted by learned commentators above, dismissal of charges and a not guilty verdict should be treated separately, I do not believe it is in the interests of justice for an innocent man to be convicted because those judges who believe him innocent do not agree on the reasons for his innocence.

[A Dance With Daario]

1) incest - not guilty, previous royal family committed for centuries

2) treason, for sexual and carnal relation to the queen - guilty, events thereafter caused massive loss of life for the kingdoms citizenry

sentence - sent to the nights watch, to make up for his crimes in some small way.

3) aided and abbeting rape - abstained, conflicts with other crimes/not enough evidence.

4) regicide - during Robert's Rebellion, Ser Jaime Lannister of the Kingsguard attacked and slew the King he was sworn to defend and protect. - Guilty of oathbreaking at the least.

sentence - stripped of kings guard rank and disowned from inheritance

5) Assaulting the kings hand - guilty, the late lord eddard may not have been the hand at the time, but he was still lord paramount of the north.

sentence - accused must pay 10,000 gold dragons to house stark

7) attempted murder - guilty, he even confrssed to it.

sentence - for the hatefull crime of attempting to murder a child we condemn "ser" jaime lannister to death by fire

Complete Sentence: For hateful and villainous crimes, we of the jury condemn this excuse for a knight to Death, he shall have both hands removed, one for the murder of aerys, the other for treason by carnal knowledge of the king Queen.

After this event, he will sent to the wall, and then tossed off it.

His crumpled body will be burned by dragonfire, then sent to kings landing, were his ashes will help mortar the foundations of the new hands tower, to make up in ome small way for eddard.

His son, joffrey, for the crime of daring to impersonate our rightful monarch, will be banished to essos, and given the surname "thatlittles&mshit"

His other children will be warded to stannis baratheon of dragonstone, where he will do what he wills with them.

[Lion of Judah]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

I have 5 more votes via PM For, from various posters.

[franko99]

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court

As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

I vote in favor of this amedment.

[Pod The Impaler]

I vote against the amendment.

The good does not wash out the bad.