An Ice Dragon Named Jon: A Crackpot Thread

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was encouraged to share this by Butterbumps, Dr. Pepper and Florina Stark. You can take it up with them if you think it's truly insane. :P

The seed for this came when someone — I can't remember who, sincere apologies; it was not me — pointed out that when Mirri conducts the spell in the tent, she uses a red bronze knife, covered in ancient glyphs. We see in Bran's visions that when people sacrificed to weirwood trees, they also used bronze knives. The common denominator of bronze in both of these rituals, the poster suggested, hinted that for "this" part anyway, perhaps the old gods' magic — "ice" magic, if you will — was what was being used.

We can surmise that Rhaego's sacrifice was what gave Dany's thought-dead "petrified" dragon eggs their life. That blood sacrifice, along with placing them on Drogo's funeral pyre, was what caused them to hatch. Or, "fire and blood."

On the other side of the coin, we now have Jon. Stabbed, possibly dead.

We also have, in the WoW preview, Bran and/or Bloodraven encouraging Stannis to bring Theon to the heart tree, as a sacrifice to the old gods, the Starks gods. I'll refer to this as the Event to prevent spoiling.

A quite-popular theory is that the Event is intended to swap out one life for Jon's. A life for a life. "Only death can pay for life." And what do they do with dead bodies on the Wall? They burn them. Possibly after storing Jon in an ice cellar at first so he, uh, keeps.

So here's my crackpot: Jon will undergo a human version of what happened to Dany's dragons. The Event will mirror the sacrifice that Rhaego gave to bring the literal dragons to life, while Jon's own funeral pyre will serve the "fire" function, the "hatching" mechanism.

I have for, well, ever suggested that Jon's parentage, a Stark and a Targaryen, gives him some sort of prophetic/thematic importance as a product of "ice and fire." In terms of waking dragons — and I take the D&E stance on this, that a dragon in prophecy is a Targaryen — then the stone (read: frozen) dragon that will awaken is Jon himself. And his "resurrection" will be a combination of ice (the Event) and fire (the funeral pyre); it is because of his own unique parentage that this is possible.

Dr. Pepper very astutely pointed out, as we discussed this, that something similar might have gone down or been intended to go down at Summerhall. DP speculated that Jenny of Oldstones may have been a Mudd descendant — First Men. And it's a fairly easy speculation that the Ghost of High Heart is really a Child of the Forest or something close to it. Her theory was that Duncan the Small and Jenny attempted to form a union much like Rhaegar seems to have had in mind with Lyanna — "ice" (First Men) and "fire" (Targaryen). For whatever reason, Summerhall failed. Perhaps the Mudds weren't "ice" enough, or maybe Jon being a warg is a contributing factor. Maybe there's nothing to this at all! :D

In our hivemind, we then started to speculate as to whether these attempts at "ice and fire" fusion could be something akin to trying to forge Lightbringer — Is Jon the first attempt, a second attempt or a third? Is he the "pinnacle"? That's something to discuss down below, I suppose.

Come at me, bros. Come. Try. Me.

[redviper9]

Great stuff as always, Apple Martini.

I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of Jenny of Oldstones and Duncan the Small as an attempted "ice and fire" union. Would Rhaegar -- who appears to have been driven by the PTWP prophecy and was haunted by Summerhall -- have been aware of the possible motives behind Jenny's and Duncan's marriage? If he was, why did he think that Aegon's song was the Song of Ice and Fire?

This post also brings to mind questions that I and many have posed before: who was Egg's wife and where was she from? And what was the exact nature of the relationship between the Targaryens and the Starks prior to Robert's Rebellion? Those questions are one of the reasons I'm so looking forward to the next Dunk & Egg novella.

[Bayard]

It's not insane, but I think crackpot is putting it mildly.

(hivemind :) )

[LeoSuperstar]

Can't read the spoiler tag because I'm on the PS3 and too tired to go get the notebook. First World Problems indeed...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Great stuff as always, Apple Martini.

I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of Jenny of Oldstones and Duncan the Small as an attempted "ice and fire" union. Would Rhaegar -- who appears to have been driven by the PTWP prophecy and was haunted by Summerhall -- have been aware of the possible motives behind Jenny's and Duncan's marriage? If he was, why did he think that Aegon's song was the Song of Ice and Fire?

This post also brings to mind questions that I and many have posed before: who was Egg's wife and where was she from? And what was the exact nature of the relationship between the Targaryens and the Starks prior to Robert's Rebellion? Those questions are one of the reasons I'm so looking forward to the next Dunk & Egg novella.

Good thinking, asking why Rhaegar was obsessed with Summerhall. Possibly a factor in his decision-making.

[kephv]

The Event takes place a week or so before Jon was iced. I would think that if anything would prevent it from using it resurrect Jon.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Totes comin' at you, bro!

First, ill touch on that perhaps that Rhaegar and Lyanna's "attempt" is sill ongoing. And that Jon's resurrection (if it comes to pass in such a manner) is the "pinnacle".

Mirri's and Dany's "attempt" seems to have been completely coincidental. But in terms of meta, perhaps a good clue into foreshadowing as to what may happen. But also successful because the dragons came to life.

If this is the case, perhaps its the Pyre thats the real "third attempt" while what may happen to Jon is the "second" due to how it began. With Rhaegar and Lyanna's union. My personal crackpot is that Jon is the Stone Dragon. Doesnt Melisandre speak of burning the King's Blood in order to wake the Stone Dragon? Why yes, i believe she did!

What i think needs to happen is this:

The Event and Jon's funeral pyre must happen simultaneously. If not simultaneously, then the Event must happen immediately before Jon's funeral pyre.

As to the Summerhall business, yes, why was Rhaegar so obsessed with that indeed? Perhaps he knew something the others did not? That perhaps Jenny and Duncan the Small were up to shenaniganry there involving the ice and fire?

The Event takes place a week or so before Jon was iced. I would think that if anything would prevent it from using it resurrect Jon.

You know this, how?

[Budj]

I think I've brought up a lot of this before :P and while I may not (probably not) be the first, I made that bronze glyph correlation in a thread at some point so no, I don't think it is crack pot and is actually what I envision in my head as an awesome way for it all to play out :)

ETA: Also glad I'm not the only one reading into the warged Ravens in the sample chapter.

[Nozlym]

Nice theory. I kind of want to know what the glyphs are about on the dagger an if they are some what related to the Rhoyces armour an if they do anything or did do something.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Event takes place a week or so before Jon was iced. I would think that if anything would prevent it from using it resurrect Jon.

Actually we don't know that it does, seeing as the actual Event to which I refer hasn't happened yet in the preview chapter. It's only hinted it; we don't know when or, yes, if it will actually happen. But nice try. I always like hearing from the cereal-pissers. :)

[kephv]

You know this, how?

Just a quick estimation. I have no idea if it's correct, but it takes places, at the very least, days before the letter arrives to Jon.

[Pugsley]

I don't consider it too crackpot, but mostly for selfish reasons ... I've been thinking along the same lines for a while. :P More specifically, I've been thinking that The Event will play a part in bringing Jon back (though you've managed to crystalize it a little more thoroughly than I had).

[Bayard]

Just like redviper, what I find interesting is not the Jon pyre thing (GRRM can take this in so many directions, I've stopped trying to guess), but the Summerhall incident. We know that Duncan the Small loved Jenny, doesn't this go against the idea of premeditation? And even more, Egg was against this marriage, but after that takes part in the experiment at Summerhall?? Doesn't really fit.

This post also brings to mind questions that I and many have posed before: who was Egg's wife and where was she from?

Most likely she was one of his two sisters... he says he will marry one of them when he's older, Maekar would surely pressure him into doing that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Doesnt Melisandre speak of burning the King's Blood in order to wake the Stone Dragon? Why yes, i believe she did!

Theon -> first king as Balon's rightful heir (and as a descendant of the Grey Kings, regardless)

Jon -> second king, as the King in the North and/or the rightful Targ king

"Two kings to wake the dragon."

[redviper9]

Good thinking, asking why Rhaegar was obsessed with Summerhall. Possibly a factor in his decision-making.

As to the Summerhall business, yes, why was Rhaegar so obsessed with that indeed? Perhaps he knew something the others did not? That perhaps Jenny and Duncan the Small were up to shenaniganry there involving the ice and fire?

Yeah, Rhaegar's obsession with Summerhall has been bugging me (for lack of a better term) lately. I can understand how it would impact him (hey, I'd probably be affected if I was born on the same day that most of my living relatives died in a fire), but I've never understood why it impacted him to the degree that it's implied it did. I'm venturing out on my own crackpot limb, but might Rhaegar have tracked down the Ghost of High Heart at some point and gotten some information on the event? I know she doesn't like talking about Summerhall, but she loves getting paid in songs, and Rhaegar had a talent for music.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just like redviper, what I find interesting is not the Jon pyre thing (GRRM can take this in so many directions, I've stopped trying to guess), but the Summerhall incident. We know that Duncan the Small loved Jenny, doesn't this go against the idea of premeditation? And even more, Egg was against this marriage, but after that takes part in the experiment at Summerhall?? Doesn't really fit.

I think the "treason" at Summerhall was that it was Duncan and Jenny who were attempting nuttery with the dragon eggs, not Aegon.

Most likely she was one of his two sisters... he says he will marry one of them when he's older, Maker would surely pressure him into doing that.

He married for love, though, didn't he? Seems he'd marry someone he chose.

[redviper9]

Most likely she was one of his two sisters... he says he will marry one of them when he's older, Maekar would surely pressure him into doing that.

Didn't Barristan mention that Egg also married out of love?

[Budj]

Another potential connection to these puzzle pieces is the shadows in the tent during Mirri's ritual. I know a lot of people speculate it is the great other and azor ahai or Stannis, but I think the wolf and man shadows may allude to Mel's prophecy about Jon? This could potentially link Jon's man-wolf-man sequence to a blood sacrifice resurrection.

[Sevumar]

I think the "treason" at Summerhall was that it was Duncan and Jenny who were attempting nuttery with the dragon eggs, not Aegon.

I wonder how this information would get out, give that all of those parties perished in the fire. It's a possibility that this is the "treachery" but I think it's more likely that the treachery occurred before the attempt at Summerhall began. It's the most obvious reading, but I still think the maesters are the prime candidates for the "treason" element in Barristan's story. Pycelle was Grand Maester for at least part of Aegon V's reign, and we've seen in the course of the story that he's quite willing to get involved in politics even to the point of trying to force a shift in the balance of power. He was willing to betray one Targaryen king, so why not another?

[Dr. Pepper]

Oh boy, a lot to say. Our hivemind has been super active in the last hour.

Re: Summerhall. There is a mystery here that's more than the firey deaths of several Targaryens. Why did Duncan have to give up his crown for Jenny? Why was Summerhall called treason by Selmy(?)? Why did the Ghost of High Heart tell Arya she didn't want her around because of the grief she drowned in at Summerhall? What was specific about Arya that connected her to Summerhall? Foreshadowing suggests the Faceless Man thing, but that may not be all there is to it.

Egg had one brother who drowned himself in wildfire in an attempt to become a dragon and another brother who suffered dragon nightmares. His narrative does not suggest someone obsessed enough with dragons to attempt to hatch the eggs. It also doesn't suggest someone who would disinherit his son for marrying for love. After all, he and his male children married for love. So why was Duncan, the Prince of Dragonflies, singled out? Was Duncan the Small dragon-obsessed? Did he have desires to hatch dragons and threaten Egg's power?

It brings up more interesting questions about the Prince that was Promised. The Ghost of High Heart says he will be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line. I demand to know what exactly the prince is promised for. Did GHH vision or whatever cause Duncan to go ahead with his dragon hatching plan? Did it make him mad? Did he think he should have been the prince that was promised?