98 replies to this topic

[Apple the Great]

If Robb did die without getting Jeyne Westerling pregnant, as Robb's younger brother, surely Bran has the strongest claim to Winterfell and being King in the North? I know he is a cripple, and is currently lost north of the wall under a tree, but these are not insurmountable obstacles and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I see people mentioning Rickon and Jon Snow ahead of him. For sure, Rickon is a healthy lad, easily accessible on Skagos, but Wyman and Davos know that Bran is alive, as does Rickon, and they would thus know that Bran has the stronger claim (and Davos would be sure to tell Stannis that Bran lives). Lord Snow has already rejected Winterfell and I suspect he would again if he isn't dead.

Despite being a cripple, Bran has extraordinary powers that theoretically would allow him to control a dragon. It is surely possible that Bran could control a dragon while he, Hodor and Meera sat on it's back and flew south. Equally possible is Bran going to the Weirwood tree in Winterfell surely, if he needs a tree - I don't buy the theory that Bran has to stay under the specific weirwood tree that the Three-Eyed Crow is under, nor do I think Bran has to stay under a tree if he doesn't want to. Maybe this is all crackpot dreams borne out of love of Bran and house Stark so if people want to tell me why this can't be right, please do, I just can't understand why people keep on passing over Bran.

Also, on a different Stark related note, why does everyone seem to assume Sansa wants to kill Littlefinger. I'll mourn Littlefinger, the crafty b*stard.

[NitzanLeo]

On a purely lawful point of view, the person with the highest claim to the crown of King in the North (or Lord of Winterfell) is Jon, just because Robb said so. Yes, Jon already dismissed being Lord of Winterfell, but that offer is totally different than what he has now. If, for instance, Jon is miraculously ressurected and decides to leave the Night's Watch for whatever he wants to do, then a big motivation for that would be that, a) it's being KITN, not LOW, and it's Robb asking him, not Stannis. I, though, highly doubt the idea that Jon will become any king other than on the Iron Throne, and that would be a long way down the road, and perhaps it won't happen. After him I'd guess it'll be either Rickon or Sansa, seeing how things will turn up. Bran and Arya are both so obviously in different areas of the plot, not closely related to any war of succession. And I also don't think that even if Jeyne's pregnant that there will be any consequence to her son being born.

[Dorian Martell]

Bran will probably end up like the bloodraven in a tree's roots. Rob made John his heir under the assumption that Bran  Rickon were dead. Lord Wyman has sent the ever reliable Davos to find and return Rickon to Winterfell  where he will be groomed for the lordship  of Winterfell or king in the north if Stannis eats it bad

[BlueEyedCrow]

Many people assume that Bran will not be returning south of the wall again, but he will stay in theat cave ot become the new tree-man.  Therefore, Rickon would be the next Lord of Winterfell or possibly King in the North.

[Apple the Great]

Sure, Robb named Jon Stark as his heir, but that was since he was under the impression that Bran, Rickon and Arya were dead and Sansa would be controlled by the Lannisters. If he had known, surely he would have named Bran, Rickon and Arya before Jon? Bran seems pretty aware of the laws of succession, and one would strongly think that all sons of Ned would stick to them. Admittedly though, this claim will not help him if he is stuck under a tree, rooted to the spot (pun intended) I think/hope Bran will ride a dragon back to Winterfell.

Edited by Apple the Great, 24 January 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Greengrace]

NitzanLeo, on 24 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

On a purely lawful point of view, the person with the highest claim to the crown of King in the North (or Lord of Winterfell) is Jon, just because Robb said so. Yes, Jon already dismissed being Lord of Winterfell, but that offer is totally different than what he has now. If, for instance, Jon is miraculously ressurected and decides to leave the Night's Watch for whatever he wants to do, then a big motivation for that would be that, a) it's being KITN, not LOW, and it's Robb asking him, not Stannis. I, though, highly doubt the idea that Jon will become any king other than on the Iron Throne, and that would be a long way down the road, and perhaps it won't happen. After him I'd guess it'll be either Rickon or Sansa, seeing how things will turn up. Bran and Arya are both so obviously in different areas of the plot, not closely related to any war of succession. And I also don't think that even if Jeyne's pregnant that there will be any consequence to her son being born.

This was under the prefix that bran and rickon were dead I dont think join will take it from them part of him knows they live and part of him doesnt want in case they aren't

[The Dragon has three heads]

Blood raven got to live a life as a man before going into the trees, and he's a targ, that's something worth noting.

Bran is a child, he's hasn't even lived yet and he's stuck down in the earth, maybe for years.  That concerns me with his ability to not become something other than human as his abilities grow stronger.  He's affectivly a god, or at the least one of te most powerful beings currently alive. That kind of power can and has corrupted people with more life experience.
I don't think Bran can be KITN but he MAY he rebuild winterfell and storms end...and the wall....

Edited by The Dragon has three heads, 25 January 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[Razha]

I think Rikon is the one who has greatest chances to end up as Lord of Winterfell.
Brann most probably will follow Blood raven's path, even replacing him....

[NitzanLeo]

Greengrace, on 25 January 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

This was under the prefix that bran and rickon were dead I dont think join will take it from them part of him knows they live and part of him doesnt want in case they aren't

It doesn't matter on what prefix Robb decided, Jon is still the--on a purely lawful point of view--heir to the North. A king, in Westerosi custom, can annul a man's vows, legitimize him from bastardom and make him his heir over his other sons or sibilings or anyone else. That was all done by Robb as he sent Maege Mormont, Jason Mallister and Galbart Glover up to the Neck with his letter saying Jon was his rightful heir. Now that Robb is dead, even if he didn't know Bran and Rickon were alive, Jon is his heir and will always be unless he hears of it and decides not to take the crown. Wyman Manderly doesn't know about the letter, which is mostly why he decides to get Rickon. Being a trueborn son of Eddard is also a major reason, but you catch the gist of it. :]

[juanml82]

With Jon legitimized, wouldn't he be, assuming he's discharged from the NW, the first in the line of sucession? A legitimized Jon Stark is Ned Stark's eldest son. Then we have Bran, who isn't currenly available, Rickon, Sansa and Arya.

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

Jon would be the King, because the King said so when he made him his heir.
I don't think that Bran would be able to "cut his roots" away from 3EC.

juanml82, on 25 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

With Jon legitimized, wouldn't he be, assuming he's discharged from the NW, the first in the line of sucession? A legitimized Jon Stark is Ned Stark's eldest son. Then we have Bran, who isn't currenly available, Rickon, Sansa and Arya.

If Jon is Ned's...

[ebevan91]

Jon, on 25 January 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Jon would be the King, because the King said so when he made him his heir.
I don't think that Bran would be able to "cut his roots" away from 3EC.


If Jon is Ned's...

Well, publicly he is.

Just like how Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are "Robert's".

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

ebevan91, on 25 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Well, publicly he is.

Just like how Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are "Robert's".

I see... My mistake.

[Winter Warden]

Robb saying so does not make Jon his rightful heir.  It merely expresses his wishes, which, were his kingdom still intact, would have likely been honoured by his vassals.  If Robb named his pet squirrel as his heir, this would also not make it so, as his vassals would not accept his pet squirrel as their rightful ruler.

The key point in Robb's will is that it legitimizes Jon, giving him a rightful claim to the title of King of the North.  However, as he remains a legitimized bastard, at least in theory, Jon comes after all of Robb's trueborn siblings, as is the custom in Westeros.  Most likely, in writing his will, Robb's goal was to guarantee that his kingdom would be passed on to a 'Stark' upon his death, as opposed to going to Tyrion Lannister.  However, as the only justice system in Westeros is the king's justice, the only person in 'The Kingdom of the North' who could decide whether Robb's will is actually sufficient to override Westerosi laws of inheritance is the King of the North (and there is currently no such king).

If a lord could simply write a will selecting which of his heirs would inherit anything, then Samwell Tarly would have never been sent to the wall, as the whole point of forcing Sam to join the Night's Watch was to make him forsake his claim to the Tarly lands in favour of his younger brother.  Randall Tarly could have simply written a will disinheriting Sam in favour of his younger brother.  That he did not do so, strongly suggests that wills are of dubious value in determing inheritance.

[cold-king1990]

Im struggling to remember here, but, everyone saying that Robb named Jon his heir still stands out vividly in my mind from the TV show, but did GRRM even mention this in the books??? and if so, whos POV was it from? because if not it could of just been written into the show as one of the many addaptations that the writers have to make, and i doubt Jeyne Westerling is pregnant because the show obviously didnt deem her important enough to stay true to her charachter bio, i could be wrong though, maybe they didnt introduce her as a westerling because they wanted to keep the amount of hired people down (her family, robbs squires etc) but i find the latter unlikely.

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

Winter Warden, on 25 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

snip

Since the order of succession starts from Robb not from Ned, Robb's will is Robb's law which mean that he could name anyone who want.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 25 January 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

cold-king1990, on 25 January 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Im struggling to remember here, but, everyone saying that Robb named Jon his heir still stands out vividly in my mind from the TV show, but did GRRM even mention this in the books???

Robb in Storm has told Cat that he was going to name jon his heir and he sends  Maege and  Glover to find Howland Reed... and is hinted at the app http://asoiaf.wester...-awoiaf-app-v2/

[Apple the Great]

Winter Warden, on 25 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

If a lord could simply write a will selecting which of his heirs would inherit anything, then Samwell Tarly would have never been sent to the wall, as the whole point of forcing Sam to join the Night's Watch was to make him forsake his claim to the Tarly lands in favour of his younger brother.  Randall Tarly could have simply written a will disinheriting Sam in favour of his younger brother.  That he did not do so, strongly suggests that wills are of dubious value in determing inheritance.

I think this is an excellent point. Given the Starks place such high value on duty and honour, I think Jon would still turn down being King in the North in favour of his younger brothers; I'm not convinced Rickon is the answer though - Wyman Manderly seems to be getting him because he knows where Rickon is rather than he thinks that he has better claim than Bran, and it's really more to have a Stark to rally round and confirm that Bran is still living. I definitely think Bran is going to take over from the Three Eyed Crow at some point, but I doubt that he has to do it under the weirwood that he's under, and he could just as likely do it under the weirwood in Winterfell's godswood, which would potentially enable him to be King in the North. Being a cripple doesn't seem to affect Willas Tyrell's claim to become lord of Highgarden when Mace dies after all.

[cold-king1990]

Jon, on 25 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Robb in Storm has told Cat that he was going to name jon his heir and he sends  Maege and  Glover to find Howland Reed... and is hinted at the app http://asoiaf.wester...-awoiaf-app-v2/

Thanks man

[Nelapsi]

Winter Warden, on 25 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

If a lord could simply write a will selecting which of his heirs would inherit anything, then Samwell Tarly would have never been sent to the wall, as the whole point of forcing Sam to join the Night's Watch was to make him forsake his claim to the Tarly lands in favour of his younger brother.  Randall Tarly could have simply written a will disinheriting Sam in favour of his younger brother.  That he did not do so, strongly suggests that wills are of dubious value in determing inheritance.

I don't agree. Sam's father did what he did because he didn't want Sam's mother to find out. The options were : you go to the wall, or we go hunting, I have you killed, and tell your mother how sad it was when you were killed buy whatever. IMO he could have written such a will, but he hated his son so much for not being a soldier and being too girly that he wanted him out of the picture for good.