Once Upon a Time (Its very own 2nd thread)

[Kobayashi Maru]

I just can't bring myself to like a character when it's so obvious that the writers are doing their best to make you love him. I mean, it happens all the time, writers manipulating viewers into feeling a certain way about something - that's inevitable, really - but be subtle about it, come on! Unlike what they did with Regina and Rumple, where they just took their time showing us why they acted the way they did, and how The Evil Queen and The Dark One are just masks they wear to protect themselves, they completely changed Hook's personality since he was first introduced. It doesn't really help that the actor is just competent, not as brilliant as Parrilla and Carlisle.

See,to me it was different. His story made sense to me and Rumple's and Regina's felt like writers are suddenly making me like them cause they want new villains in the story and these two are best actors they've got and they want them in the show but not as antagonist. To me their redemption stories were hard to swallow. It's more appealing to watch the story about good guy and brother gone bad but brought to his good side again with love (awwwwww) then coward being corrupted by power and woman who blames everyone for her lover dying and her mother not being mother of the year. It's great and I watch it and I love both Rumple and Regina but Hook's story is more my kind of stuff I guess... :dunno: and I am talking now...when he was wife stealing pirate I didn't care too much for him..

Maybe you need some driving lessons, too. :P

Oh now you're just putting thoughts and naughty images in my head...Charming...back seat of the car...SEE!!! You created a monster.

[Warg Arry]

In that episode where she's in the Charmings' place, she prepares some tea for Snow, doesn't she? I don't remember her wearing gloves when doing that. The scene you mention of her shaving the adoptive father, that was before she turned green or had any magic, so I don't think that counts. Maybe the water thing would only work as long as she's green? But what kind of explanation would you use; that water is pure and washes away the evilness or something? :dunno:

I just checked the scene where Zelena makes tea. She isn't wearing gloves.

The adoptive father shaving scene she has magic. Natural, not learned or harnessed. She pulled a cloth from the air.

But you're right she hasn't turned green yet. Perhaps that visual indication of her corruption could lead to a vulnerability to the purification and cleansing of water. If they still even go that way.

I'm starting to think they won't.

I've been mulling over this last episode.

The Charming's thought process never ceases to amuse me. "Hook helped Emma. I don't see why he wouldn't want to help you too."

Snow and Charming's relationship took on a new level for me. I recently read that they just got married IRL. Others probably already knew this.

For me it was a double take moment. I didn't pick up on any authentic chemistry between them I guess. But Good for them and congrats.

I loved the scene where Regina walks in after having set up magical protection for the Charming's apartment. There wasn't so much as a 'thank you'. I guess they really are family now. Just taking each other (Regina) for granted.

I remember near the beginning I really disliked Hook. When I thought he was gone from the show. I celebrated a little.

Now I find I don't mind him. But at this point it could go either way. I guess it depends on how he handles the curse Zelena put on him.

I was hoping he would be honest about it. Put his personal trepidation aside and come out and tell Emma (and in that moment Regina too.)

Forewarned is forearmed right?

We all know, Hook just disappearing isn't going to work. And I hate that I feel like the 'magic taking' kiss is now inevitable. When reciprocated flirting is barely on the table.

Maybe it's just that I don't like the way this storyline has turned. I'm not against the CaptainSwan ship. I admit there is chemistry there. But I feel a bit like an issue has been forced. It makes me uncomfortable.

Kiss her or people she cares about will die. Just Blech..

After David's driving lesson I just hope Henry doesn't need swimming lessons. "Ok here we go.." *Throws into deep end.*

[Warg Arry]

Kudos to the person who called the Frozen cross over to OUAT

Looks like it could be in the works. Linkydoova

[Summah]

Snow and Charming's relationship took on a new level for me. I recently read that they just got married IRL. Others probably already knew this.

For me it was a double take moment. I didn't pick up on any authentic chemistry between them I guess. But Good for them and congrats.

I didn't know about this, and don't really care, but screen and/or stage chemistry does not necessarily equal real life chemistry and vice versa. I've heard of other actors I thought had no chemistry having relationships or getting married in real life, some who have great chemistry having relationships/getting married and some who have great chemistry and supposedly can't stand each other irl, and then there's cases where a pair of opposite sex actors have great (romantic) screen/stage chemistry but irl one or both of them is actually gay.

[Lady Octarina]

I just checked the scene where Zelena makes tea. She isn't wearing gloves.

The adoptive father shaving scene she has magic. Natural, not learned or harnessed. She pulled a cloth from the air.

But you're right she hasn't turned green yet. Perhaps that visual indication of her corruption could lead to a vulnerability to the purification and cleansing of water. If they still even go that way.

I'm starting to think they won't.

Oops, my bad. What I meant was that she wasn't the Wicked Witch yet.

Have you seen the teasers for the next episode? At this point, I reeeeaaaaally hope she isn't Rumple's daughter, though I still think it would make more sense than anyone else being her father.

Kudos to the person who called the Frozen cross over to OUAT

Looks like it could be in the works. Linkydoova

I'd be all for it!, though any Frozen-related news have me mentally singing Let It Go for hours afterwards.

The one problem I see is that I think there are already many parallels between Regina and Elsa - apart from having a sister who loves her, of course - so it could get repetitive. But Frozen got them so much money, it would certainly help with the popularity of the show.

Which reminds me, what are the chances Zelena and Regina will be BFF sisters?

But I'm really still waiting for Tiana to show up in Storybrook.

Snow and Charming's relationship took on a new level for me. I recently read that they just got married IRL. Others probably already knew this.

For me it was a double take moment. I didn't pick up on any authentic chemistry between them I guess. But Good for them and congrats.

I didn't know about this, and don't really care, but screen and/or stage chemistry does not necessarily equal real life chemistry and vice versa. I've heard of other actors I thought had no chemistry having relationships or getting married in real life, some who have great chemistry having relationships/getting married and some who have great chemistry and supposedly can't stand each other irl, and then there's cases where a pair of opposite sex actors have great (romantic) screen/stage chemistry but irl one or both of them is actually gay.

You know, all this talk about chemistry between actors reminds me of that episode of FRIENDS where Joey says he only has any chemistry when working with actresses he haven't slept with. Maybe that's why. :devil:

[Summah]

You know, all this talk about chemistry between actors reminds me of that episode of FRIENDS where Joey says he only has any chemistry when working with actresses he haven't slept with. Maybe that's why. :devil:

I don't know there might be sometching to that, but I don't think it's quite that simple, I think Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton still had screen chemistry even after marriage and divorce and remarriage.

[Lady Octarina]

I don't know there might be sometching to that, but I don't think it's quite that simple, I think Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton still had screen chemistry even after marriage and divorce and remarriage.

Oh, I know - my favorite example of a (then-)married couple who had great onscreen chemistry is Emma Thompson and Kenneth Branagh, after all. But the joke was too good to resist. :blushing:

But on those two from Once, I wouldn't say they have that kind of chemistry that gets you ridiculously invested in a fictional relationship, but it works for them, it's cute, you know? The Charmings are, after all, the most traditional couple on the show (since all the others that get any screentime seem to either be hero-rehabilitates-villain, or a way to make Henry's family tree even more absurd), so I'd say what there is is enough. At least it's not cringe-worthy.

See,to me it was different. His story made sense to me and Rumple's and Regina's felt like writers are suddenly making me like them cause they want new villains in the story and these two are best actors they've got and they want them in the show but not as antagonist. To me their redemption stories were hard to swallow. It's more appealing to watch the story about good guy and brother gone bad but brought to his good side again with love (awwwwww) then coward being corrupted by power and woman who blames everyone for her lover dying and her mother not being mother of the year. It's great and I watch it and I love both Rumple and Regina but Hook's story is more my kind of stuff I guess... :dunno: and I am talking now...when he was wife stealing pirate I didn't care too much for him..

Yeah, I disagree. Rumple and Regina are tragic characters, imo, of the best kind - Rumple is the nice but weak guy who went after power for himself for the best of reasons, but couldn't resist and ended up corrupted by it, and the same thing that was supposed to save his son and their family turned out to be the reason why they were forced apart for 200 years. And Regina, poor Regina, she never stood a chance. She was this sweet kid full of hopes and dreams of true love and all that, but used since birth, or even before then, by her mother as nothing but the means to an end, with a father who loved her but was too weak to try to help her in any way. And then another "paternal" figure comes along, freeing her from her mother's clutches, only to become the one to manipulate her for the next several decades of her life. One could say she could have left all that behind and just found her happiness some other way, but, come on, she was prevented from thinking by herself since a young age, constantly denied any kind of freedom; she couldn't have achieved that even if he wanted. Plus, I strongly believe that, even if she had walked into the tavern and spoken to Robin when Tinkerbell led her there, she would still have eventually become the Evil Queen. Rumple needed her to cast that curse, it was foreseen, and the way he saw things he didn't have any choice, so he would have found ways to manipulate her into doing no matter how hard she tried to escape him.

And then there's Hook. I just don't think there was any smooth transition between the younger brother with dreams of honor and loyalty to a crown to ruthless pirate who kills, steals, humiliates people, and who knows what else. And no transition either to becoming a good guy for Emma's sake; one minute he's only acting nice when she's around, the other he's actually helping people and you don't really see why. Plus, his relationship with Emma felt forced to me from the start, so it's hard to warm up to it now. Maybe the writers will still show some flashbacks to flesh him out better, or maybe the problem is the dude is simply not good enough an actor to play more complex characters, but everything about Hook just feels empty to me. But each to their opinion. :cheers:

[Lady Octarina]

OMG, what was this episode?! I'm feeling like I'm a teenager again right now! :bowdown:

I don't know what made me happier: perfect Outlaw Queen kiss, or Regina and Snow bonding! And that's all I can say about the sweet parts of this episode; the feels are still in charge! :wub:

I did like the parallels, that still make them so different, between Snow-Regina and Eva-Cora, and how the daughters relationship progressed from that.

Now, about Zelena... While I'm glad that she isn't Rumple's or King Leopold's daughter, I'm just wondering who the gardener dude is related to - because, come on, this is OUAT, nothing is as simple as some random guy getting a key character pregnant and never showing up or being mentioned again. Just, please, can he not be Robin's father? Because a few clues seem to point in that direction, and, dammit, this family tree is complicated and incestuous enough as it is.

Nice to see that Cora was somewhat innocent once, but those flashbacks left me with some questions about a couple things:

1 - King Leopold nearly married Cora. Wtf was he thinking years later when he married her daughter, who was nearly the same age as his own daughter? Seriously, what is wrong with him? Unless Cora wiped his memory...

2 - so, Cora didn't have any magic when Zelena was born, and I really doubt the father guy did. So how come is she that ridiculously powerful? Enough to open a portal to a different realm when she's just a few hours old?

[Warg Arry]

OMG, what was this episode?! I'm feeling like I'm a teenager again right now! :bowdown:

I don't know what made me happier: perfect Outlaw Queen kiss, or Regina and Snow bonding! And that's all I can say about the sweet parts of this episode; the feels are still in charge! :wub:

Me either. Ah the feels now that Regina and Snow are closer. But I still had a huge Squee at the OutlawQueen kiss. YAY

I did like the parallels, that still make them so different, between Snow-Regina and Eva-Cora, and how the daughters relationship progressed from that.

Same. A complicated history indeed

Now, about Zelena... While I'm glad that she isn't Rumple's or King Leopold's daughter, I'm just wondering who the gardener dude is related to - because, come on, this is OUAT, nothing is as simple as some random guy getting a key character pregnant and never showing up or being mentioned again. Just, please, can he not be Robin's father? Because a few clues seem to point in that direction, and, dammit, this family tree is complicated and incestuous enough as it is.

I couldn't agree more. Though I couldn't think of who the father could be. And I recall a romantic history between Cora and Rumple. But I really really didn't want it to be Rumple.

I really don't want it to be Robin's father either. I got the feeling though that he wasn't just some guy. A douche bag for sure. But he made some claims that could be taken as nothing or implied abilities.

I doubt it is but a thought just popped into my head. Rumple's grandfather... Blech

This everyone is connected thing goes a little too far sometimes. IMO. So I wouldn't actually be all that surprised.

Nice to see that Cora was somewhat innocent once, but those flashbacks left me with some questions about a couple things:

1 - King Leopold nearly married Cora. Wtf was he thinking years later when he married her daughter, who was nearly the same age as his own daughter? Seriously, what is wrong with him? Unless Cora wiped his memory...

LOL I know. So weird. I was having a WTF moment too.

2 - so, Cora didn't have any magic when Zelena was born, and I really doubt the father guy did. So how come is she that ridiculously powerful? Enough to open a portal to a different realm when she's just a few hours old?

Does potential or innate abilities count in passing on to offspring?

There has to be a reason that Zelena was already far more powerful when a little baby than a practiced witch is.

It's weird I didn't realise that it was Zelena that opened that portal until you mentioned it.

I guess I was busy wondering why Cora left her there exactly. And attributed the portal to something Cora knew or did.

If Cora was leaving her to die why bother wrapping her up in a nice blanket with a pretty bow in a basinet. Which brings me back to. Why that spot.

Did Zelena subvert Cora's actual plans for her by opening a portal. Or was the portal Cora's plan?

Loved the episode. Need to mull it over.

Also answered you in your spoiler tag. Hope that's ok. It's just that your points were well put and brought up specific thoughts of my own.

[Gwydden]

OMG, what was this episode?! I'm feeling like I'm a teenager again right now! :bowdown:

I don't know what made me happier: perfect Outlaw Queen kiss, or Regina and Snow bonding! And that's all I can say about the sweet parts of this episode; the feels are still in charge! :wub:

I did like the parallels, that still make them so different, between Snow-Regina and Eva-Cora, and how the daughters relationship progressed from that.

Now, about Zelena... While I'm glad that she isn't Rumple's or King Leopold's daughter, I'm just wondering who the gardener dude is related to - because, come on, this is OUAT, nothing is as simple as some random guy getting a key character pregnant and never showing up or being mentioned again. Just, please, can he not be Robin's father? Because a few clues seem to point in that direction, and, dammit, this family tree is complicated and incestuous enough as it is.

Nice to see that Cora was somewhat innocent once, but those flashbacks left me with some questions about a couple things:

1 - King Leopold nearly married Cora. Wtf was he thinking years later when he married her daughter, who was nearly the same age as his own daughter? Seriously, what is wrong with him? Unless Cora wiped his memory...

2 - so, Cora didn't have any magic when Zelena was born, and I really doubt the father guy did. So how come is she that ridiculously powerful? Enough to open a portal to a different realm when she's just a few hours old?

Pun intended?

This is just too ridiculous. Just the other day I started writing a story involving a prince that pretended to be a gardener. Maybe that's the reason I'm convinced this Jonathan guy is more than he looks like. All the time he was onscreen I felt like I was missing some sort of reference. He may not be related to anyone, but I'm almost certain he will show up again and/or prove to be more than he seemed.

[Lady Octarina]

I couldn't agree more. Though I couldn't think of who the father could be. And I recall a romantic history between Cora and Rumple. But I really really didn't want it to be Rumple.

I really don't want it to be Robin's father either. I got the feeling though that he wasn't just some guy. A douche bag for sure. But he made some claims that could be taken as nothing or implied abilities.

I doubt it is but a thought just popped into my head. Rumple's grandfather... Blech

This everyone is connected thing goes a little too far sometimes. IMO. So I wouldn't actually be all that surprised.

But Rumple is like 200 years old, so it's certainly not his grandfather! It could be the long-lost great-great-nephew he never knew existed or something. :eek:

Which reminds me, someone actually went through the trouble of putting down that family tree on paper. Well, not on paper, but you get the idea. They just forgot to include Graham's connection to Regina and Emma (actually, I don't see Graham here at all). This show is such a mess; I love it! :bowdown:

Also, it seems Adam Horowitz said on Twitter, answering some questions, that Leopold knew/remembered who Cora was when he married Regina. Ew. :ack: (well, there isn't any evidence of that in the episode itself where they meet, and I doubt that was the plan back in season one, but it's still disgusting :stillsick: )

[Angalin]

Being on a OUAT binge, I rewatched 2x18, "The Miller's Daughter", which is the earlier version of Cora's story. The wording around the first-born child thing is fuzzier than I remembered, and there are gaps in the story that could (just) be plugged with the newer info... maybe (eeek).

But Rumple is like 200 years old, so it's certainly not his grandfather! It could be the long-lost great-great-nephew he never knew existed or something. :eek:

Which reminds me, someone actually went through the trouble of putting down that family tree on paper. Well, not on paper, but you get the idea. They just forgot to include Graham's connection to Regina and Emma (actually, I don't see Graham here at all). This show is such a mess; I love it! :bowdown:

Also, it seems Adam Horowitz said on Twitter, answering some questions, that Leopold knew/remembered who Cora was when he married Regina. Ew. :ack: (well, there isn't any evidence of that in the episode itself where they meet, and I doubt that was the plan back in season one, but it's still disgusting :stillsick: )

It would fit with Emma's comment that she "thought we were the good guys" and Regina's rejoinder that life is too complicated for that.

[Warg Arry]

But Rumple is like 200 years old, so it's certainly not his grandfather! It could be the long-lost great-great-nephew he never knew existed or something. :eek:

Which reminds me, someone actually went through the trouble of putting down that family tree on paper. Well, not on paper, but you get the idea. They just forgot to include Graham's connection to Regina and Emma (actually, I don't see Graham here at all). This show is such a mess; I love it! :bowdown:

Also, it seems Adam Horowitz said on Twitter, answering some questions, that Leopold knew/remembered who Cora was when he married Regina. Ew. :ack: (well, there isn't any evidence of that in the episode itself where they meet, and I doubt that was the plan back in season one, but it's still disgusting :stillsick: )

Oh you're right. I don't know why I keep forgetting the whole age thing. Even though I'm consistently impressed with Rumple's long game.

Thanks for the link!

[Angalin]

Correcting myself: it's 2x16, and there are weird parallels between Rumplestiltskin teaching Cora and Emma how to do magic, then and now. I was going to observe how like Zelena is to Cora in wanting to revenge herself on her enemies and humiliate (or eradicate) them, but really the big change is in Rumple.

eta: the whole point of that episode is to have Cora wanting the dagger so she can kill Rumplestiltskin and become the Dark One herself. Why doesn't Zelena just cut to the chase and do that? She already has the dagger. Setting the reset button is goofy when she has no guarantees that it'll turn out any better than it has so far.

[Lady Octarina]

Correcting myself: it's 2x16, and there are weird parallels between Rumplestiltskin teaching Cora and Emma how to do magic, then and now. I was going to observe how like Zelena is to Cora in wanting to revenge herself on her enemies and humiliate (or eradicate) them, but really the big change is in Rumple.

eta: the whole point of that episode is to have Cora wanting the dagger so she can kill Rumplestiltskin and become the Dark One herself. Why doesn't Zelena just cut to the chase and do that? She already has the dagger. Setting the reset button is goofy when she has no guarantees that it'll turn out any better than it has so far.

I'm still in 2x08 on my rewatch, but I'm certainly paying more attention to that sort of detail.

On why Zelena doesn't just become the Dark One herself, it could be because she has feelings for Rumple, but I think it's more likely that she's just so convinced she knows the one problem in her life is that Cora had to give her up that she can't allow herself to consider she might not have been that happy raised by Cora. Also, Cora wanted to become the Dark One because the thing driving her actions has always been her ambition, and if she couldn't be queen, the biggest magical authority seems like a nice second option. Zelena is not driven by ambition, what she wants is love; she's desperate for it, just like Regina spent half her life running away from it to avoid more disappointment and heartbreak. It's an interesting family dynamics, and I kind of would like to see the AU timeline where Zel is indeed raised by Cora only to see things turn out terrible.

The other thing is that it also goes with what Zelena said to Regina, that she doesn't appreciate what she has and she doesn't take risks so she can't find happiness. Becoming the Dark One, to her, would be avoiding risks, not taking them. And she wants the life she thinks Regina had, whereas she knows Rumple's life as the Dark One wasn't anything worth her envy.

[Angalin]

I'm still in 2x08 on my rewatch, but I'm certainly paying more attention to that sort of detail.

On why Zelena doesn't just become the Dark One herself, it could be because she has feelings for Rumple, but I think it's more likely that she's just so convinced she knows the one problem in her life is that Cora had to give her up that she can't allow herself to consider she might not have been that happy raised by Cora. Also, Cora wanted to become the Dark One because the thing driving her actions has always been her ambition, and if she couldn't be queen, the biggest magical authority seems like a nice second option. Zelena is not driven by ambition, what she wants is love; she's desperate for it, just like Regina spent half her life running away from it to avoid more disappointment and heartbreak. It's an interesting family dynamics, and I kind of would like to see the AU timeline where Zel is indeed raised by Cora only to see things turn out terrible.

The other thing is that it also goes with what Zelena said to Regina, that she doesn't appreciate what she has and she doesn't take risks so she can't find happiness. Becoming the Dark One, to her, would be avoiding risks, not taking them. And she wants the life she thinks Regina had, whereas she knows Rumple's life as the Dark One wasn't anything worth her envy.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts as you get further along with the rewatch. :)

Wrt to the bolded text: there's a recurring theme of lost children and how that reverberates into their adulthoods, isn't there? Appropriate enough, when it comes to fairy tales. The face-offs between heroes and villains [in Once] that I can remember all seem to have been a lost child who's now found a family defeating a lost child who refuses to let other people in.

(I've been thinking a lot about fairy tales lately for other reasons, so this discussion is a propos.)

[Lady Octarina]

Wrt to the bolded text: there's a recurring theme of lost children and how that reverberates into their adulthoods, isn't there? Appropriate enough, when it comes to fairy tales. The face-offs between heroes and villains [in Once] that I can remember all seem to have been a lost child who's now found a family defeating a lost child who refuses to let other people in.

Funny you should mention that, because while I was rewatching season 2, a similar thought occurred to me, but shaped like: "oh no. OUAT is just like Marvel Comics: none of this would exist if these characters actually had a good relationship with their parents, or if the parent they did get along with wasn't dead". And I finally understood why I like this show so much. :drunk:

[Theda Baratheon]

Aaahhh!! This episode was so much fun!! The only part I was irked by was Leopold marrying the DAUGHTER of his almost-first-wife, wtf!!!

[Angalin]

Funny you should mention that, because while I was rewatching season 2, a similar thought occurred to me, but shaped like: "oh no. OUAT is just like Marvel Comics: none of this would exist if these characters actually had a good relationship with their parents, or if the parent they did get along with wasn't dead". And I finally understood why I like this show so much. :drunk:

screwballninja has a good essay on how characters on OUAT try to come to terms with major trauma in their early lives by doing the same things that happened to them to other people; of course, I can't find it now. She also has a hilarious rant about August/Pinocchio.

Aaahhh!! This episode was so much fun!! The only part I was irked by was Leopold marrying the DAUGHTER of his almost-first-wife, wtf!!!

Yes... that is going to need some explanation, OUAT writers. ;)

[Theda Baratheon]

it certainly does! :p

i particularly enjoyed all the snow/regina bonding!!