Jump to content


Photo

If Robb had married the Frey.


  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 Femme_Fatale

Femme_Fatale

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:43 PM

I'm pretty sure that a similar topic has been done before but in light of the RW... Robb never lost a battle, he was supposedly winning the war but what would've happened if he had ignored the call of 'love' and instead married one of the Frey girls. Would Roose still betray him? Would things work out any better? Could he have even won the IT or made the north independant again? Or were things doomed to end badly for Robb?

#2 The Faceless Wolf

The Faceless Wolf

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 60 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

He doubtless would have made another terrible decision that led to his downfall. I like Robb but he made some dumb choices. Also he's a Stark, so he's screwed sooner or later.

#3 Ser Luke.

Ser Luke.

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 876 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:46 PM

He doubtless would have made another terrible decision that led to his downfall. I like Robb but he made some dumb choices. Also he's a Stark, so he's screwed sooner or later.


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' />

#4 steely94

steely94

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 87 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:56 PM

One of the best outcomes might have been to go with his plan he concocted just before the RW. Go back north, use Howland Reed and his men against the Ironborn at Moat Callin, and then fortify the place and bed down for winter. The old Kings of Winter were supposed to have held that fort against huge armies. Dread to think what would happen to the Riverlands though.

#5 ~DarkHorse~

~DarkHorse~

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,681 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:07 PM

If Walder Frey saw no victory for Robb then he may have still betrayed him, also Roose would have probably waited for the ideal moment (when Robb and his men were at their weakest) to strike and grasp the power for himself.

However, I don't think Robb could have won even with Frey support- they are just too unreliable and he had too many enemies.

He won every battle but he was losing the war. He would never bend the knee to Stannis or a Lannister so the war would have raged on with no victory for him unless he gained more allies and Stannis agreed to let the North have independence which would never happen.

#6 Jory_Cassel

Jory_Cassel

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 19 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:20 PM

I love(d) Robb, but the Roose betrayal had been set for a long time I think regardless of the Freys. DarkHorse makes a great point he won every battle but was losing the war. The Lannisters had the manpower and wealth to continuously throw bodies, weapons and troubles to Robb which would keep depleting his forces, it was basically like fighting a strong sea current you're going to lose eventually...unfortunately /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />.

#7 Lord Damian

Lord Damian

    Fist of the First Men

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,526 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:30 PM

Robb should have sent his mother back to the twins to pick the prettiest bride and brought her to Riverrun after his first victories and sealed / fulfilled his oath. Robb should have known better. He threatened to hang the Greatjohn as an Oathbraker, then he became one himself, then he became a kinslayer to boot regarding Lord Rickard. You could see it coming, just not in such a shocking manner as a guest Rights violation.

#8 Master Forel's Fro

Master Forel's Fro

    You had me at Hello

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 819 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:38 PM

They would still betray him except this time without Sybil and her potions the Frey girl would have robb's heir puting walder's grandchild in winterfell I'd rather all the Starks dead than that.

#9 AegonTargaryen

AegonTargaryen

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 302 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

I don't know...if Robb makes it home and hides behind Moat Cailin I'd say it's a stalemate. Tywin didn't have dragons mind you.

#10 The Wolves

The Wolves

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,554 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

Walder Fray was always going to betray Robb marriage or no marriage. I'm glad non of my Starks ever married into that worthless disgusting family

#11 Tony Soprano

Tony Soprano

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,649 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:54 PM

If he married a Frey girl, he would definitely have the support of his queen's family. At the time of his march south, the Freys were just as loyal as the rest of the Riverlords. Their attitude towards the Northmen changed when Robb took Jeyne as his wife. Before the Red Wedding, Robb was readying a march back North, to retake Winterfell and drive the Ironborn invaders out of the North. If Walder and Roose hadn't betrayed him, he would have done it with ease.

If he had returned North and stayed there...a lot of things might have changed. Even Roose wouldn't have dared to assassinate him after they returned North, without the support of the Lannisters or the Freys. He would have retaken Winterfell and freed his kingdom from the Ironborn. The South would be forced to march through Moat Cailin and take the war to him. I'm not sure how all that would have worked out, but I'm pretty sure Robb would have lived a bit longer if he hadn't broken his promise.

#12 Strongest Of All Belwas

Strongest Of All Belwas

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 413 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:17 PM

Robb wouldn't have had to even marry a Frey if he had simply seceded and remained North. He was King in the North, as the ancient Starks before him. Starks NEVER ruled the Riverlands, and he never should have added that to his responsibility. The Riverlands are ravaged in EVERY conflict, he wouldn't have been able to hold them.

The King in the North should have stayed in The North.

#13 Dryhtscipe

Dryhtscipe

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 440 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

Then the Red Wedding would have happened anyway.

Possibly at the same time. He had to go to the Twins, sooner or later... not to mention that the Karstarks were pissed over Catelyn freeing Jaime anyway. So Robb would still have needed the Freys, and they'd have demanded the wedding before the battle, just as they did.

Then, Red Wedding.

So not sure it really mattered half as much as it seemed to.

#14 otherbeef

otherbeef

    Husband to Bears

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 892 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

his cause was doomed no matter what. He had to face a Tyrell/Lannister alliance which has what, 3 or 4 times as many men as he does. He had to face the ironborn in the North (which he probably could've driven out, but at cost). And even if he abandoned the Riverlands, the South can still bypass Moat Cailin and invade the North with their naval power.

#15 rystine

rystine

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 445 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:56 PM

I believe it all would depend on when he married the Frey girl.

If he had done things the exact same way that he did, except not marry Jeyne, and upheld his vow of betrothal, then the Freys would still have abandoned him. At the time of the RW, the Stark cause was in bad shape. Between Theon taking Winterfell, the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and Stannis' loss on the Blackwater there was little real hope left in Robb's war. Now the betrayal would not have been as horrific as the RW, likely the Freys would have simply denied Robb from crossing and said they were declaring for the Lannisters. But the writing was on the wall and there was no good reason for the Freys to continue supporting Rbb at that point.

But if Robb had married Roslin (or another Frey girl) when he initially passed through or immediately after he lifted the siege on Riverrun, then at that point the Freys have much more to lose if they betray Robb. At the point that Robb became King of the North and Trident, if a Frey was his queen than the Freys would have had much more incentive to try to keep Robb in power. They would have essentially become the second most powerful family in their kingdom and I think even Walder Frey would have been hesitant to throw that away.

#16 JMJ

JMJ

    Westerosi ski bum

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 907 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:57 PM

Whether it was through the Red Wedding or some other means, Robb would have lost the war. He was clearly developing to be a brilliant battle tactician, but he had no skill nor apparent interest in the politics that matter as much if not more than the battle tactics.

#17 unSonofStannis

unSonofStannis

    Heretic wannabe

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,642 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

He would've went north and kicked the Ironborn out but the Riverlands was doomed to be conquered by the Lannisters and Tyrells, Randyll Tarly was already in Maidenpool.

#18 CrowsBeforeHoes

CrowsBeforeHoes

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

He still probably would've lost a longer war. The Riverlands would probably be conquered while he was gone and who knows what would go on while he's up North. And would a Frey bride ultimately ensure Frey loyalty? Probably not.

Something more exciting to consider is what if Edmure was not an such an idiot, had let Tywin cross into the Riverlands, and then closes the way behind him. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance might not exist, Stannis would be in control of KL, and the Lannister host would likely be destroyed, though any hostages gained might be useless as Sansa would likely be with Stannis. This would fulfill Robb's original plan of trapping Tywin between his and Edmure's forces.

But one of Robb's other mistakes to consider is the execution of Lord Karstark. I don't think he needed to kill him at that time. I would've just kept him imprisoned or under house arrest for the rest of the war to delay his punishment until the end of the war. If Karstark hadn't been executed, Roose might not have committed to betrayal at that time, and also wouldn't have been able to rely on Karstark forces to betray the Starks.

Edited by CrowsBeforeHoes, 13 June 2013 - 08:29 PM.


#19 Khal Iago

Khal Iago

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 39 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:33 PM

They would still betray him except this time without Sybil and her potions the Frey girl would have robb's heir puting walder's grandchild in winterfell I'd rather all the Starks dead than that.


Hear hear! Fuck them!

#20 Castel

Castel

    The Dream Begins

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,300 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:54 AM

Robb wouldn't have had to even marry a Frey if he had simply seceded and remained North. He was King in the North, as the ancient Starks before him. Starks NEVER ruled the Riverlands, and he never should have added that to his responsibility. The Riverlands are ravaged in EVERY conflict, he wouldn't have been able to hold them.

The King in the North should have stayed in The North.

Robb's marriage alliance had nothing at all to do with being a King. He had to do it to get round Tywin. It was only that victory that gave him the political capital to become king, before that he just wanted his father.

On top of that, his war required allies, which the Freys were.