blackfyre claim

[profilebegone]

Definitely right, my bad. I edited the op admitting fault. I misread Daerons coronation date as his birth date.

Meh, it happens, hard enough to keep track of what happened when in real life.

[profilebegone]

It took so long, because Daemon being the all round great guy he was had to be convinced to rebel. However, as soon as he was given the sword many people started speaking about him being the rightful heir, a full 12 years earlier. Daemon was also descendant from the senior line of Targaryens, through Daena the Defiant. Daeron being spiteful with the woman Daemon loved was the straw that broke the camels back.

Sure, but if Daeron was also an awesome guy and an awesome king or Daemon was an all-around great guy but looked like Tyrion then probably no rebellion. Point is there's always a lot more underlying these kinds of fissures than legalisms - like power, love, envy, hatred, money, revenge, etc.

It's also yet another good example of why primogeniture of any form is a poor way to award political office!

[blood of the dragoon]

Sure, but if Daeron was also an awesome guy and an awesome king or Daemon was an all-around great guy but looked like Tyrion then probably no rebellion. Point is there's always a lot more underlying these kinds of fissures than legalisms - like power, love, envy, hatred, money, revenge, etc.

It's also yet another good example of why primogeniture of any form is a poor way to award political office!

Very true, but i only wanted to talk legally for the sake of the thread.

The king is whoever's ass happens to be in the ugly iron chair.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Don't legitimised bastards come after all the born legitimate children? And They never won the war so what right do they have?

[blood of the dragoon]

Don't legitimised bastards come after all the born legitimate children? And They never won the war so what right do they have?

See,i thought legitimized put you in line according to age.

Ramsay snow comes before Roose and fat Walda's first son.

[mrunderhill]

See,i thought legitimized put you in line according to age.

Ramsay snow comes before Roose and fat Walda's first son.

I don't think so, but I guess the argument can be made. However, as pointed out Daeron was actually much older than Daemon. Old enough to be his father. The Blackfyre claiming rested on three main things, but only two seem to have been emphasised.

1. Daemon had the sword of the kings and so Aerys had chosen him as his heir, The argument was that it was not primogeniture that had determined the succession, but primogeniture and the gift of the sword. Aegon IV being the worst ever Targaryen king had separated the two. I guess it would be like if in Japan a really bad emperor had given his second son the Imperial Regalia.

2. Daemon was the better man. Quite clear, Daemon as the best Targaryen should be king over the weaker one.

3. Daeron was illegitimate. This seems to have been around for a while and was started by Aegon IV possibly. The idea was thet Daeron was the child of Aemon and therefore illegitimate. In that case the throne rightly belonged to the oldest legitimised bastard, which was Daemon.

A Blackfyre today would struggle to argue

1. since the Targaryen kings have not had Blackfyre for a 100 years.

2. They would have to proof they were the better man and as with Daemon II, that is not always the case.

3. Nobody believes anymore.

So a current Blackfyre has no real blood claim to the throne even if they had not been barred from the succession, which is very likely. All the Baratheons would be ahead of them as would all of the Martells.

[Frozentree]

Daemon was like Renly. He was popular and good-looking and believed that makes him a king.

[mrunderhill]

Daemon was like Renly. He was popular and good-looking and believed that makes him a king.

That's not fair on Daemon, because there were many other factors.

1. He was given the sword of kings hinting that Aegon IV wanted him as his heir.

2. His mother was actually from the senior line, the sister of past kings Daeron I and Baelor.

3. There were rumours that Daeron II was a bastard.

People were telling Daemon he was the rightful king since he was 12.

[Lost Melnibonean]

See,i thought legitimized put you in line according to age.

Ramsay snow comes before Roose and fat Walda's first son.

But a war hammer or the backing of a powerful bank can put you right back at the front of the list. It's all about power, including soft power. Otherwise it'd be a pretty dull "game."

[The guy from the Vale]

That's not fair on Daemon, because there were many other factors.

1. He was given the sword of kings hinting that Aegon IV wanted him as his heir.

2. His mother was actually from the senior line, the sister of past kings Daeron I and Baelor.

3. There were rumours that Daeron II was a bastard.

People were telling Daemon he was the rightful king since he was 12.

Actually, GRRM makes that symbolic connection himself. At the feast after the tourney of Bitterbridge, Lord Caswell offers "buttery cheese" - precisely the food that made Lord Butterwell so rich. The parallels of Bitterbridge and Whitewalls are there, quite visible even, once you look for them.

[WildBlood]

Daeron II born in 154:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Landing#Year_154_after_Aegon.27s_Landing

Daemon Born in 170:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Landing#Year_170_after_Aegon.27s_Landing

[mrunderhill]

Actually, GRRM makes that symbolic connection himself. At the feast after the tourney of Bitterbridge, Lord Caswell offers "buttery cheese" - precisely the food that made Lord Butterwell so rich. The parallels of Bitterbridge and Whitewalls are there, quite visible even, once you look for them.

I had missed them, I will look for them again. That being said Daemon had many valid reasons to think he was king apart from just being the better man. Renly did not. In fact even Stannis being given Dragonstone could be used as evidence, that Robert considered Stannis his heir.

[Frozentree]

That's not fair on Daemon, because there were many other factors.

1. He was given the sword of kings hinting that Aegon IV wanted him as his heir.

2. His mother was actually from the senior line, the sister of past kings Daeron I and Baelor.

3. There were rumours that Daeron II was a bastard.

People were telling Daemon he was the rightful king since he was 12.

1. That Aegon the Unworthy wanted him as heir is a factor against him if anything, considering how awful king he was. But okay, let everyone interpret it as they like, argument over things like this never leads anywhere.

2. This is actually downright negative factor. A daughter (and her children) is in line before a sister (and her children). Junior branch (as long as it is the main branch) has stronger claim than senior one.

3. This rumor is actually pretty much impossible to prove or disprove. If the king had regular sex with his wife, it is hard to make judgment according to time of birth and because both "fathers" are Targaryens, it is impossible to judge by looks/character as well. In court, this claim would never work.

[mrunderhill]

1. That Aegon the Unworthy wanted him as heir is a factor against him if anything, considering how awful king he was. But okay, let everyone interpret it as they like, argument over things like this never leads anywhere.

2. This is actually downright negative factor. A daughter (and her children) is in line before a sister (and her children). Junior branch (as long as it is the main branch) has stronger claim than senior one.

3. This rumor is actually pretty much impossible to prove or disprove. If the king had regular sex with his wife, it is hard to make judgment according to time of birth and because both "fathers" are Targaryens, it is impossible to judge by looks/character as well. In court, this claim would never work.

2. I think you misunderstood me about this one. Daena was the eldest daughter of king Aegon III. However, since female Targaryens cannot inherit, the throne passed to her uncle Viserys II. Apart from with the Targaryens, Daena would have been inherited over her uncle in very other case.

3. This rumour does not seem to have been used much by Daemon, but it was still there and seems to have come from the king himself.

This is not really the same as Renly, who has no argument except being the better man.

[The Prince of Ice]

I will say this once again then finally shut up about it. Theres no rightful king by blood or right. If you have the strength to take the throne then you are the One True King. Other than that tour just saying your king and basically blowing smoke out your ass. Once the Baratheons took the throne only conquest mattered from their on. Well theres my two cents.

[binga]

I am not too familiar with all the details of the Blackfyre rebellion. Did Daeron actually do something to deserve a rebellion against him? Was he cruel?

[Morienthar]

I am not too familiar with all the details of the Blackfyre rebellion. Did Daeron actually do something to deserve a rebellion against him? Was he cruel?

No.He was just a bit weak.

[otherbeef]

i never understood why he took the name Blackfyre when he was legitimized. Why not just be Daemon Targaryen? theoretically might be easier to win support that way

[binga]

No.He was just a bit weak.

Well that seems like a dick move on Daemon's part.

[mrunderhill]

Well that seems like a dick move on Daemon's part.

Daemon had good reasons to think he should be king the most important is that he was given the Blackfyre sword. Every Targaryen king had been given this sword at some point.

Daeron then gave away Daenerys the woman, Daemon loved and she loved too, to the Dornish to bring them into the realm. The thing is he did this in part to spite Daemon, because many people were whispering Daemon was the rightful king and marrying Daenerys would help his claim. This made Daemon furious. Daeron ordered his arrest, but the former Master-at-arms and a great swordsman Fireball saved Daemon and then the rebellion began.